New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

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John C
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby John C » Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:49 pm

I hear what you are saying Russ. I'm an Ecotec Fan. I'm getting ready to start an ecotec build myself. I know your boat runs strong. But he is talking about a 2:1 reduction.
DuckNutt wrote: Am I correct that if I'm getting 350 hp from my engine and a 2 to 1 reduction that'll put 700 at the prop? That's what I'm told anyway.


Your boat is a Stud, but its not stock. Just trying to compare apples to apples to be fair. Not trying to bash ecotec's. I think a stock turbo 4 cyl ecotec motor with a 2:1 gear is compairable to an 0540 boat. I don't think its gonna run away from one. Maybe I should have said there is no stock (From the factory) ecotec/gearbox boat that is gonna run away from an 0540 boat. Either motor can be built to be Bad AZZ with power adders, Turbo's, Nitrous, ect. I stand corrected. The #'s I was referring to in my post state with a 2:1 gear ratio.

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby DuckNutt » Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:08 pm

Russ/John/Dave/Others, can't tell ya all how much I appreciate the discussion, it's opening my eyes to what I'm really taking on here with this build. In talking to those on this thread I've already realized I was way off base with some of my original assumptions. I spent about an hour on the phone talking about this build with some of you and I believe it's smart to stay with a 13' boat only a touch wider. I was and still am planning on the 350hp 2.4 liter but not so sold Ox now after discussions. Tim aka DuckNutt

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby OneBFC » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:23 pm

No worries John, no chest pounding Goin on here. you are right, stone stock 2.0T with a 2:1 will make identical prop shaft torque as an o540.

most people will opt for 2.3x or 2.5/2.6x and run the stock turbo tuned for 300 hp. This will make a good bit more in that case. No upgraded turbo required. It compares favorably to a GSO480/540 at that point.
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,70+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby jwoodl01 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:34 pm

Russ, fill me in on where I'm losing ya...

If I was to look at the torque data you posted, it would lead one to believe that your 2.0 Ecotec would out perform a GSO480 being as there is nearly a 300 ft lb advantage on your end.

While your boat does run exceptionally well, and am I by no means knocking it, I do not feel that is in the same ball park as a healthy GSO. Rather that of 500-600 horse aluminum V8 with big reduction.

Other than the obvious advantage of fuel consumption, and reliability that some would say is yet to be determined, would you agree with my performance assumptions?

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby strokin05ct » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:47 pm

DuckNutt wrote:Russ/John/Dave/Others, can't tell ya all how much I appreciate the discussion, it's opening my eyes to what I'm really taking on here with this build. In talking to those on this thread I've already realized I was way off base with some of my original assumptions. I spent about an hour on the phone talking about this build with some of you and I believe it's smart to stay with a 13' boat only a touch wider. I was and still am planning on the 350hp 2.4 liter but not so sold Ox now after discussions. Tim aka DuckNutt



DUCKNUTT
may I ask what has you sold on the 2.4L?
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----------------------------
"she gone!"
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby DuckNutt » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:11 am

I'm taking my time researching all of the Eco's. I'm leaning to the 2.4 because it's the one I've found thats pushing the HP envelope 300+ and the package is not bad on price and comes with the ECM. I don't want to stir the pot at all, my preference for trucks is Ford. "Still driving a 72 F250 Sport Custom 4x4 with a 390, but for this build it seems to me that GM 2.4 is landing where I want to be on price, HP, and ease of fab.

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby John C » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:33 am

The 2.4L Turbo would be a good choice. it certainly will get the job done. ptr34 is running one and it looks like it does very well in the video.
I'm gonna try something a little different. I'm not looking to build a rocket ship. I'm a granddad now, I just want a dependable boat that I can put pump gas in and get me where I want to go without getting stuck and without breaking the bank. I don't want to worry about finding AV gas and paying the price for it any more. And I don't want to have to ware out my credit card at the pump keeping the Big Caddy boat filled up. I bought a Ecotec 4.3 LV3. Its a 2014 low mileage motor that came out of a Silverado pick up truck. its a 6 cyl NA motor. I didn't want to deal with the extra cost and plumbing and coolers ect. that come with the Turbo. I know its not gonna run like a turbo boat. But it should get the job done. Factory specs say 285 HP and 305 ft lbs TQ. with mild sport tune the #'s should be approx. 310 HP and 325 ft lbs TQ. I'm gonna run a 2.55:1 gear ratio. That should put me at about 830 ft lbs TQ. That should be all I need. The non turbo set up is about 3 K less than going with the turbo. Yes I know I'm leaving some power on the table without the Turbo. But it should be a nice rig and go where I point it. I'm not looking to burn up the hill or go extremely fast on the water. The 4.3 has a nice TQ curve and makes plenty of power at lower rpm's. I know its a 6 cyl. But its all aluminum and it is shorter than the straight 4 cyl. Its still lighter than an 0540 or an Ls motor and gets good fuel economy. I'm gonna give it a try and see how it works out.

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby OneBFC » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:29 am

Hi Jake. Not sure where we are not seeing the same data.

GSO480 puts out 345 hp, right? With a 1.55 reduction that is 827 lbft torque.

2.0T tuned puts out 310hp. with a 2.68 reduction that is 822 lbft Torque.

I think they compare favorably, no?



jwoodl01 wrote:Russ, fill me in on where I'm losing ya...

If I was to look at the torque data you posted, it would lead one to believe that your 2.0 Ecotec would out perform a GSO480 being as there is nearly a 300 ft lb advantage on your end.

While your boat does run exceptionally well, and am I by no means knocking it, I do not feel that is in the same ball park as a healthy GSO. Rather that of 500-600 horse aluminum V8 with big reduction.

Other than the obvious advantage of fuel consumption, and reliability that some would say is yet to be determined, would you agree with my performance assumptions?

Jake
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,70+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby Tony480 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:06 pm

Hmm..but a supposedly 400 horse ecotec with a box turns a 3 blade 74" ngq whil a gso480 turns a 3 blade 80 r series with less gear...not adding up to me...

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby OneBFC » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:31 pm

Tony I know you are difficult to convince. I am just providing the math. The calculations are correct and based off of data that is well established.

The 400hp Ecotec you refer to is mine I assume. Perhaps the one Terri built. While prop diameter is important, it doesn't give a clear picture of what an engine produces. I run a 76" 3 blade maximus because i cant fit more. Dave Simpson runs a 79" 4 blade whirlwind, loudmouse runs a 80" NGR. All Ecotec boats.

Farmboy, Kevin, swings a 74" 3blad R on his GSO480 And that boat runs super strong. Others run 80" or more. So I think the platforms compare favorably.

Blade diameter and pitch can be adjusted to meet performance goals on a given boat.

What matters is HP in the end. gear ratios equalize the available torque and prop shafts speeds.

nothing wrong with skepticism, just stating facts.
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,70+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby jwoodl01 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:38 pm

Russ,

I understand the equation on how to calculate the torque numbers. What I do not understand, as Tony mentioned, is how an engine such as yours which by the numbers makes roughly 300 ft lbs MORE of torque with the 2.3:1 gear, is spinning a smaller prop than that of a GSO with a reduction of 1.5:1 with the disadvantage of quit a bit of power.

Also, on an thread in years past when Dan was still around, it was noted that some GSO's were making around 1700 pounds of thrust verses that 1300+ pounds which you represented in earlier data testing.

Must be the gremlins in the gear nose that make them swing the big blades.
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby Tony480 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:39 pm

Anyone who thinks a ecotec is comparable to a gso480 had definitely bumped their head...

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby farmboy » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:50 pm

I'm running a 3-blade 74" R cause I can't clear anymore cause of my cage. My prop isn't enough for my motor.
14ft JB Hull,Lycoming GSO480 w/water-meth injection,Sensenich 3-blade "R",ButtRaxx seats,B&S Trailer.

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby OneBFC » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:00 pm

Thanks Kevin, not meaning to insinuate you couldn't swing more prop, just saying diameter isn't best to judge by.

I don't know how to show data any more clearly. If someone with a GSO480 is making more power than 345hp, then of course they will make more torque and thrust.

Are you guys stipulating that 345hp on an aircraft engine with a 1.5 reduction isn't the same as 345hp on an automotive engine with 2.68 reduction?

If so, can you explain your theory as to how that is possible? preferably, please provide data to support so everyone can arrive at the same conclusion.
-Russ
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400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,70+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby Tony480 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:07 pm

I'd be curious to see what tour ecotec would do with a 1.55 gearbox...guarantee you it won't spin the same prop at the same pitch the same rpm...it should swing more since you make more power...but you can't swing more prop with more gear now...so fill us in...

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby getchasumairboats » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:48 pm

They are probably pretty good (LITTLE ) engines for what they are. Awhile back the pitch they were gonna be the replacement for the 540 now there gonna replace the gear supercharged ? Lmao they look cute swinging there little 3 blade q's or There little cut down sw blades with very little pitch. Kinda makes me chuckle reading about all these bigger engines that they replace but they don't turn the same prop.....
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby jwoodl01 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:03 pm

I myself have no data to publish.

What I'm basing my opinion off of is that of what Dan posted from previous testing, personal observation of the relationships between prop diameter to pitch applied to reduction ratio, and the fact that i have buddies with both GSO's and bad hammer big horse LS's that compare reasonably well when it comes to performance.

This may be before your time, pre-LS popularity, and other advancements, but i have personally NEVER seen a 350 HP V8 or any other 350 HP application even remotely compare to a GSO when having an equally rigged boats.
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby OneBFC » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:31 pm

Well guys, if all that can be presented is personal opinion and second hand experience it is really hard to use that as a basis for discussion.

As additional point, the 76" wide blades on my 400hp eco are not set to a light pitch. It is set at neutral or 2 pitch and it spins the prop 2300rpm. Could add pitch as prop is rated 2200rpm but I prefer it at 2 setting. I run a 2.38 box.

Tony, the gear ratio is meaningless. It simply reduces engine speed to the correct prop speed. HP is what matters if you have control over gear ratio. No where is anyone claiming an 2.0T ecotec makes 345hp or 400hp at 3400RPM. Neither will an LS motor with the exception of maybe one of Dave's DD engines or a forced induction LS.

HP is HP, happy to look at something that proves otherwise. No data, no proof.

I provided data. Lots of it. Numbers, dynos, thrust tests, maf flow rates, fuel flow rates, boat weight, real world video of it running, speed, etc.

Bring some data, let's have a real discussion that hopefully proves HP made by an Aircraft engine is not the same as HP made by any other type of engine.

Seriously, this would be a fantastic discussion.
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,70+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby gso480jr » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:28 pm

after 30 years of running strictly ac, I saw the handwriting on the wall. So I just sold my supercharged 480 boat and am starting to think about ecotec. We all know the limitations of ac vs the unlimited options for car motors. this thread is very interesting and opens ones eyes even wider.

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby chuckitt@earthlink.net » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:29 pm

Russ, there is no comparison. Your engine uses about 1/4 the fuel of a GSO480. It weights over 100 lbs less. It cost less than 1/2 to replace.
It also goes anywhere the other boats go.
Chuck

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby Tony480 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:30 pm

A Gso480 with a 76" prop like your's would yank that bitch in pieces. Hell they turn an 80 prop like yours pitched neutral..seen it first hand..first they were gonna change airboating,then they were an LS replacement, then a 540,now a gso480 replacement...**** gets deeper and deeper every day. And yet dave Simpson has had multiple problems with his as well as the one Terry tried to demo...

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby gso480jr » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:37 pm

Tony, one cannot argue the power of the gso480, but at the end of the day, the ecotec route just makes more sense economically. I am still a fan of ac engines.

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby jwoodl01 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:10 pm

Chuck, not once was it mentioned where the GSO was more fuel efficient or a lighter power plant option than the Ecotec. That's a no brainer.

There's no doubt the little engines are proving to be great engine options. All I'm saying, is the torque math does not seem to represent the GSO fairly.

What is questioned is how engine A is making 300 ft lbs more, with almost 2X the reduction, and turns props equal to or less than that of the under powered engine B.

On a side note Russ, regarding calculating torque, how do the 3 major light duty diesels publish engine torque specs that are higher than the torque formula would represent?
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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby OneBFC » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:57 pm

I am not familiar with the published information. Can you provide a link to it?


On a side note Russ, regarding calculating torque, how do the 3 major light duty diesels publish engine torque specs that are higher than the torque formula would represent?
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,70+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy

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Re: New Build EcoTec Turbo 2.4 (First build want advice)

Postby chuckitt@earthlink.net » Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:18 pm

I am sorry, I though if you were going to compare HP and Torque, you would also compare weight. Add a 100 lbs in the back of a boat makes it take more HP to get it on plane and keep it there. I also though cost to operate would be a facture. Guess not.
Thanks, Chuck


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