I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

[Slidin Gator]

During my last ride at Mack's, the sled just didn't slide right. Climbed under it when I got home and found that the trailing edge of my poly is lifting off the rivets, time to take her out of service. Luckily I already had a plan, so it's time to implement.

I have two identical 14x7 High Side, open hulls originally built by Bob Stossel. They were called Marsh Master back in the day. These are light weight, riveted 0.100 aluminum hulls, originally built narrow to run ground with 6 cylinder Aviation power.

To date I have been running the Ugly Duck and I have been focused on the motor, running it for 3 seasons while upgrading as I went. It's finally time to get rid of all the God Awful, extra heavy rigging and get back to how these boats were supposed to be rigged. The boat is rigged with heavy square tube, easy to weld, not so easy on the scale. As she sits now she is 1,700 lbs full of gear and cooler, 1,880s full of 28 gallons of fuel, not including riders.

The new boat is a sister hull all done up. The bare hull as she sits weighs 440 lbs and is finished in Steelflex 2000 on the hull and Rapter on the topside, non-skid all around.

I dropped this hull off with Trevor Booth Saturday to get conduit rigging & cage, a solid aluminum grass rake, some seats and other odds and ends. If you value the paint job on your truck, I suggest avoiding Okeechobee County for another couple of weeks, damn they are thick this year.

It looks like Trevor & Michelle (Booth) have already hooked me up with the perfect seats!

I will be refurbishing the following from the present Ugly Duck and moving them over to the new boat "Ghost":
- Rudder
- 500 Ft-Lb O-540 Engine
- Engine Stand
- Prop & Hub
- Fuel system
- Gauges etc.

I can't wait to pull all that old square tube rigging off the old boat and weigh it. Between light weight 2 seat conduit rigging and deleting the poly, I am hopeful to get the Ghost boat well under 1,500 lbs without fuel. My plan is to have the Ghost up and running for Gator season.

Boat #2 is not yet named, but it is gonna be a rebuilt version of the Ugly Duck. The weight of the existing rigging will help guide my weight budget and power plant options for Boat #2. The engine for boat #2 is gonna out do Ghost for certain, but is not settled by a long shot. My baseline is a 600 ft-lb IO-540, but #2 is gonna be a no holds barred build, consider me call me CM curious at this point, any solution is gonna make some prop torque for sure. Both boats are gonna be 2 seater, front driver hunt style set ups. Both are gonna be outfitted with an add on jump seat in front of the driver. The plan at the moment is to have Boat #2 complete by summer 2020, but I'm not gonna stress over that one.

We all have to have goals. My goal is to haul 2 people and a dog or two anywhere I need to go, then add a deer and/or a hog and bring em all back to the launch in the heat of the day. Ghost should do all of that and the motor will be a lot happier than she is now with the Duck. My added goal for boat #2 is to haul all of this a minimum of 40 miles of solid dry on one load of fuel, starting fully loaded at the North end of Lake Washington in the dry season, that place is One Rank Marsh. :bom:

More as we go :thumbleft:

 

[Seven3]

That’s cool. Are they older boats that were lightly used, or were they never rigged?

 

[Seven3]

And I have have a question for you, seeing as your new hull is painted inside. And even though I don’t know your background, judging from your prior posts you seem like a knowledgeable guy. What’s your opinion on painting the inside of the hull on a riveted boat? I just had a new riveted hull built, and initially I planned on painting the inside of the hull before it was decked over. But in the end, I decided not to.

Mainly because I was afraid of water leaking in from the bottom through the rivet holes and seams and getting trapped between the paint and the metal. I’ve had riveted boats since I was a kid...even the tightest ones still leak through some of the rivets when enough of the bottom paint gets knocked off. I was thinking that it would be a bad thing for water that leaked in from the bottom to get trapped once it got to the inside of the hull under the paint. Thoughts? And my boats are stored indoors, so I figured that’s another reason it wouldn’t be necessary.

 

[radtech]

Awesome brother! If the new one will be lighter and better than the old one, it ought to be a monster! I never saw you struggle anywhere...except when towing my barge. lol Look forward to riding with you next time I'm down

 

[kwanjangnihm]

call me CM curious at this point

SG keep your man-card punched! don’t be drinkin that CM kool-aide, that’s all smoke n mirrors, high rev low torque blah blah, never see those guys deep in the sheet where the real AC guys hang, they’re all the time gettin towed in, rebuildin their junk, spewin ani-freeze and polishin their rudders. :stirpot: :toothy7:

 

[flcracker9]

call me CM curious at this point

SG keep your man-card punched! don’t be drinkin that CM kool-aide, that’s all smoke n mirrors, high rev low torque blah blah, never see those guys deep in the sheet where the real AC guys hang, they’re all the time gettin towed in, rebuildin their junk, spewin ani-freeze and polishin their rudders. :stirpot: :toothy7:

mc.PNG

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Gary S]

I had to rebuild the cage on my latest boat after I stuck a frog gig in the prop. (I also had to get a new frog gig) The cage was DOM so I thats what I put back. It was the first time I used it and I was impressed. It welded easier and worked the same as conduit and was lighter in the end.
I was at a friends house that has started doing stainless cages and he was showing me a new cage they had built. It was off the boat sitting on the ground, he got on one side and I got on the other and lifted. I was surprised how light it was. Especially when we picked up original cage. You also don't have paint or powder coating to contend with.

 

[Slidin Gator]

That’s cool. Are they older boats that were lightly used, or were they never rigged?

Both are 30 year old hulls, rode hard and put up wet. They were daily work boats at a gator farm in Louisiana. The Ugly Duck is on at least the second set of rigging because I know Bob Stossel didn't build that heavy setup. It was running, but just barely when I got hold of it. The Ghost hull was refurbished by Mike Stossel a couple of years ago.

And I have have a question for you, seeing as your new hull is painted inside. And even though I don’t know your background, judging from your prior posts you seem like a knowledgeable guy. What’s your opinion on painting the inside of the hull on a riveted boat? I just had a new riveted hull built, and initially I planned on painting the inside of the hull before it was decked over. But in the end, I decided not to.

Mainly because I was afraid of water leaking in from the bottom through the rivet holes and seams and getting trapped between the paint and the metal. I’ve had riveted boats since I was a kid...even the tightest ones still leak through some of the rivets when enough of the bottom paint gets knocked off. I was thinking that it would be a bad thing for water that leaked in from the bottom to get trapped once it got to the inside of the hull under the paint. Thoughts? And my boats are stored indoors, so I figured that’s another reason it wouldn’t be necessary.

Seven,
I think you probably made the right choice going un-painted. Your thoughts are exactly right about water leaking under the paint, in particular on a deck over where you don't have good access. The Ugly Duck shows exactly the result, lot's of corrosion inside the hull with the old paint bubbling and lifting up off the corrosion. That hull is going to get a full strip down and blast, I don't really know what shape it is in until I get the poly off. For these old hulls, being open hulls, paint is about the only way to make them look good after all the blasting, which is really the primary reason for the paint job. All that said, 30 years of service in brackish water and still serviceable says paint isn't a deal killer either.

As a point of reference, note all the un-painted aluminum trailers. When left un-coated, aluminum uses all of it's surface area to dissipate electrical flow, which is driven by dis-similar metal joints, like rivets on the boat and steel hardware on a trailer, not to mention stray current from the boat electrical systems. When coated, corrosion accelerates at any breaks in the coating because there is less surface area to dissipate the electric flow. Without coating, corrosion is slower and more uniform. Coating just makes it look good, but it needs to be maintained.

 

[Slidin Gator]

I had to rebuild the cage on my latest boat after I stuck a frog gig in the prop. (I also had to get a new frog gig) The cage was DOM so I thats what I put back. It was the first time I used it and I was impressed. It welded easier and worked the same as conduit and was lighter in the end.
I was at a friends house that has started doing stainless cages and he was showing me a new cage they had built. It was off the boat sitting on the ground, he got on one side and I got on the other and lifted. I was surprised how light it was. Especially when we picked up original cage. You also don't have paint or powder coating to contend with.

It will be conduit and DOM tubing. I was originally thinking aluminum, but Trevor convinced me the flex of an open hull will crack the aluminum, which makes sense to me, I want easy. 160 lbs for conduit & DOM, vs. 140 lbs in aluminum, not a deal killer. Ghost isn't gonna be fancy and certainly not shiny. Rust makes better camo than shiny SST.

 

[Slidin Gator]

call me CM curious at this point

SG keep your man-card punched! don’t be drinkin that CM kool-aide, that’s all smoke n mirrors, high rev low torque blah blah, never see those guys deep in the sheet where the real AC guys hang, they’re all the time gettin towed in, rebuildin their junk, spewin ani-freeze and polishin their rudders. :stirpot: :toothy7:

mc.PNG

I never said High Rev, Low Torque. But this is just the kind of trash talkin I was lookin for :salute:

 

[Seven3]

Seven,
I think you probably made the right choice going un-painted. Your thoughts are exactly right about water leaking under the paint, in particular on a deck over where you don't have good access. The Ugly Duck shows exactly the result, lot's of corrosion inside the hull with the old paint bubbling and lifting up off the corrosion. That hull is going to get a full strip down and blast, I don't really know what shape it is in until I get the poly off. For these old hulls, being open hulls, paint is about the only way to make them look good after all the blasting, which is really the primary reason for the paint job. All that said, 30 years of service in brackish water and still serviceable says paint isn't a deal killer either.

As a point of reference, note all the un-painted aluminum trailers. When left un-coated, aluminum uses all of it's surface area to dissipate electrical flow, which is driven by dis-similar metal joints, like rivets on the boat and steel hardware on a trailer, not to mention stray current from the boat electrical systems. When coated, corrosion accelerates at any breaks in the coating because there is less surface area to dissipate the electric flow. Without coating, corrosion is slower and more uniform. Coating just makes it look good, but it needs to be maintained.

That makes sense, thanks for the info. I never even thought about it from an electrolysis stand point, but you make a good point with that. I’m not an engineer or a mechanic, but I try to look at things and figure things from an analytical point of view. This was my first new hull and it cost me over 10k, trying to do everything I can to make it last me a lifetime.

 

[SWAMPHUNTER45]

YOU CAN'T HIDE BIG MONEY GATOR !

I will take my HIGH REV...….LOW TORQUE junker and get to the back of the line...lmao

 

[Slidin Gator]

I will be well under the $70K bogey with 2 great running boats. It just takes 5 years total.

It is helpful that my youngest just Graduated college. Now I can focus on important stuff!

 

[pipedog]

Lookin good Buddy!!
:salute:

 

[Slidin Gator]

I just got the ugly duck stripped, I used a digital fish scale and weighed every thing that came out/off the duck. I have a spreadsheet list of everything to post shortly just as soon as I get a crane scale for the major pieces to confirm my fish scale numbers. Regardless, holy crap, I've been hauling around 350 lbs of rigging and cage alone. The misc. crap list is interesting, start with 9 lbs of rope, just rope!

This first boat is gonna be so much lighter, it's gonna run like I added 100 ft-lbs more torque easy, but no changes to the motor.

Here is some history associated with these two hulls. Enjoy and thank Vickie for making it.

https://vimeo.com/111697453

https://southernairboat.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=64334

Check out this awesome documentary about a legendary airboat engineer from south Florida. It's based on a true story about the life of Bob Stossel, Airboat Engineer- Florida Pioneer. Enjoy!

Make sure you click on HD button to watch it in High Definition... it really makes a difference in the viewing quality.


- Vicki Gordon Dameron

 

[Slidin Gator]

Here is part of the crap I found up under all the weeds:

Yep, been hauling a 24 lb winch forever. The one time I needed it I had left it at home to keep weight down. A come a long will work just fine for emergency service going forward.

And yep, them's my socks, wool drys out a lot quicker than cotton in the summer, stays cool in the winter. Best wading socks going.

 

[CarMotorBarge]

Slidin Gator,

You stated the following in other thread:

"I certainly did, no doubt higher HP produces higher static thrust. Thrust needed is a function of the hull, friction and the load. I spot you top thrust king on the thrust tester vs. my 500 ft-lb motor. I am interested in the thrust response comparison, time to 90% of max thrust for a given rig. 40 yard dash, climb the hill and follow the leader through the woods, that's what counts. We are gonna have to set up an obstacle course"

We definitely need to measure how the LOW TORQUE LS will compare to the HIGH TORQUE A/C engine on thrust response. How about doing the following:

1. Do a 40 yard dash in the water.

2. Do a 40 yard dash on the hill.

3. Climb Obama Ridge.

4. Run a timed obstacle course in Gardner's Marsh.

5. Measure on the thrust tester the time it takes to go from idle to 1200 foot lbs of thrust.

All of these tests are stacked in favor of the HIGH TORQUE A/C engine.

 

[Slidin Gator]

I said it, said I said it, now I am saying that I said I said it.

#'s 1-4 look like winners to me.
#5, I already said I would spot you thrust king, make #5 maximum thrust. If Boat #1 makes 1,100 lbs I will be smiling. Boat #2 will be at least 1,200 lbs thrust. These are 7 foot hulls, 76" prop diameter is maximum and will have to wait for Boat #2 and a new engine/stand.

#6, Quickest time to 90% of maximum static thrust (for each rig). Not which one snaps prop RPM the fastest, thrust vs. time.

#7, Slow competition, run a course without stopping, taking the longest time.

We can add top speed if you want, but this is gonna be a 45, maybe 50 mph boat. I'm not interested in speed

#8, 2 bonus points for whoever tows in the other.

 

[CarMotorBarge]

So we agree on items #1 thru #4. How about this for items #5 thru #9:

5. Measure on the thrust tester the time it takes to go from idle to 1000 foot lbs of thrust. If your BIG TORQUE A/C motor can't make 1000 foot lbs of thrust, we will drop to 900 foot lbs of thrust for the test.

6. Quickest time to 90% of maximum static thrust (for each rig). Not which one snaps prop RPM the fastest, thrust vs. time. Keep in mind that the LOW TORQUE LS might make twice the static thrust of the BIG TORQUE A/C. So I have to SNAP thru twice the prop resistance to get to 90% of max static thrust. So the LS has to do twice the work. Doesn't sound fair for the LOW TORQUE LS, but I will accept the challenge. Doubt I will win this, but lets see how close I come. 8)

7. Slow competition, run a course without stopping, taking the longest time. Not sure why we are doing this, but we can do this on the hill and in the water.

8. Tow a boat on plane. So the boat you are towing has to be on plane. 8)

9. Race in the water 400 feet. These short races are all about snap. The BIG TORQUE A/C should have an advantage here.

Does this sound acceptable for the LOW TORQUE LS vs BIG TORQUE A/C Challenge?

 

[Slidin Gator]

CMB,

All good for me, a couple thoughts.

Between #5 and #6 I say sure. I think you are sand bagging on #6. With 2.88 of gear your set up is gonna make more prop torque early on. The "Theory" that I am proposing is that thrust is going to be reasonably linear with the engine torque curve during prop acceleration. We need to measure thrust, RPM and time. We baseline a static thrust curve (thrust vs. RPM) for each rig. If my Theory is correct, thrust during prop acceleration at any given RPM will be greater than the thrust taken from the static curve. If I am wrong, thrust will be equal to or less than the static curve.

My point is that you don't have to spin the prop up before thrust comes in, you just have to spin up to the torque band. That is why I came up with the 90% (or 80 or 50%) of max thrust figure, it really measures the area under the torque curve while accounting for differences in the power level for each rig. At the end of the day, I am most interested in response in the operating range and do want to test thrust response from various steady state RPM's.

But no need to complicate all this, #5 and #6 combined is enough to call it agreed and we move on.

#7, Go slow in the water is stupid, no need for an idle competition, handy for docking and bow fishing I assume, but no a concern for me. The go slow competition is all about how I use my boat. Is the boat and power controllable to hold at the just break friction point while running ground, but able to light up when needed? The hill is OK, but doesn't really get to what I am looking for in a boat. I am looking for nasty swamp, maybe even some dry mud. Maybe we allow stopping (off the clock) and just say no stopping for longer than 15 minutes or longer (some folks call this stuck) :stirpot:

#8, I am sure that Barge Jr. will tow my boat and I am quite confident I will have no issues planning out Barge Jr. I am happy to leave this in, it's probably a wash. The 2 points bonus was for hauling in your rig when it sends a rod out of the block and through the prop. :stirpot:

#9, sure, race in the water, hopefully 1-2 inches deep so we can have some fun doing it!