Orange Flags

[blackpowderscout]

I really don't know what to say about learning that the FAA wanted and apparently succeeded in requiring that all airboats have an orange flag displayed. Quite honestly, I feel a stunned. I was under the belief that the FAA was organized to help defend our rights and fight the antis but instead I see it cowing to them and in fact coming up with new ways to further regulate us. ORANGE FLAGS!!! I know many of you from the east coast and down south already have to fly them and may be used to it but here around Kissimmee we don't. It's bad enough that I have to worry about the man itching to write me a ticket every time I set foot in the marsh as it is but now he has one more thing to catch me on.

Was there really a call for flags among the antis or was this just some delegate's great idea at the last meeting?? Please explain this to me. What is next?? I got it lets require that we MUST wear PFD's because that portrays a good image. How about we require that we MUST wear helmets so we don't bump our heads on low hanging trees?? Or we could require that no airboat can run near the shore because some antis believe it causes erosion and we don't want to fight the antis.

For those of you who read this and say wow, it's just a flag why is he bent out of shape?? It's not the flag that bothers me. It's the fact that people who don't live where I live, don't hunt where I hunt, don't fish where I fish, who don't ride where I ride can make up new rules to regulate me. It's bad enough that I got the federal and state govts to worry about but now I got fellow airboaters too.

Adam Wetherington

 

[JoeH]

About 10-12 years ago I was out at the Sturgis rally and particiapted in a group ride sponsored by a local MC club. To identify the riders in the group, we were all given a red bandana to tie on the handlebars. It had a saying on there that really hit home with me. It goes along the lines:
" Protect well your freedoms for once you loose them, it is hell to get them back"

Evertime I see/hear about new legislation, regardless or the area( boats, MC's property rights,etc.) I remind myself of that bandana and try to do whatever I can to discourage new laws that continually chip away at our freedoms and will be diffilcult, at best , to ever regain.

 

[Anonymous]

Whoa, Blackpowder! Take a deep breathe here .... !

The legislation that was set for this session, which included some of the things we wanted, was for us to have to carry the 20x20 flag required by the USCG when in grass above 4 ft. in height, or in "ALL other area where it is currently reguired". There are a lot of those places too my respected young friend.

We said, "how 'bout if we just carry the SMALLER flag all of the time and then we'll always be in compliance".

I think that's what they agreed on. If you run on the St. Johns, the larger flag was ALWAYS required before anyway. This new regulation will allow the smaller one, and you won't have to worry about what the local rules are, you'll always be OK.

BF

 

[Anonymous]

Adam,
Interesting observation on the working legislation.

There is nothing new or surprising about the flag issue. It was proposed over two years ago by the former leadership of the FAA in an attempt to make the State regulations uniform throughout the state and to protect airboaters.

You mentioned that you do not need a flag on your boat to run Kissimmee. Are you aware of how many airboat accidents and deaths have occurred on the "Dead River" in recent years?

Also, the proposed legislation called for ALL watercraft that operate in areas of obscured or limited visibility display an orange flag visible above the vegetation. That includes canoes, kayaks, jon boats, bass boats, rubber rafts and airboats.

That is what the "non-discrimination" clause is all about.

How many times have you been operating through the cattails and suddenly come upon a canoe or jon boat sitting on the edge of the grass with cane poles in the water?

There is a bigger picture that many fail to see, rather than . . . how "it" affects me now. "It" being mufflers, flags, fire extinguishers, running lights or PFDs.

All of us belong to the "boating" community, regardless if we operate an airboat, jon boat, bass boat, canoe or sail boat. When an accident, injury or death occurs on the water it affects us all.

How we operate our vessels reflects upon us all. Either we regulate ourselves or someone will step in to legislate us.

Every accident/incident is ammunition for the antis. They will everything and anything they can against us.

When a poacher is arrested while operating an airboat it gives the impression that all airboaters are poachers.

When an airboat sinks in the middle of the night, with the operator breaking just about every safe boating rule and 5 law enforcement agencies have to conduct a search to find them, it gives the impression that all airboaters are reckless.

When a pickup truck towing an airboat pisses off a group of bicyclists it gives the impression that all airboaters are discourteous drivers.

You mentioned that you operate your boat on Lake Kissimmee. Are you aware that Polk County had the highest number of drowning deaths in the state of Florida in 2005? Need I mention the 2 airboaters who drowned near Bartow last fall? Maybe wearing PFDs while operating a vessel that can sink in 3-10 seconds is not a bad idea.

There is currently a State law that requires children under the age of 6 to wear a PFD while on any vessel under 26 feet in length and under operation. Would you believe that recently while out on Lake Kissimmee, I personally witnessed an airboat under operation with 3 children on board none of which were wearing a PFD? The sight made my skin crawl!

Enough said.
Airboat safely and keep in mind what you do while airboating is a reflection upon us all as airboaters. We are all one big family.

WaterLizard 8)

 

[Larry]

BPS, the way you are speaking about having to run a flag is exactly how people down here in the everglades feel about having to run mufflers. We don't have any residential areas anywhere near where we ride and have no complaints about airboat noise, yet we now have to install mufflers on our boat. Some boats will need some extensive modification to run them as well. I know about having one more thing the Man can write you up for sucks, have many friends that have gotten that $50 ticket, and one just lost his flag 2 hours earlier to a tree and was still written up, but at least its not a real hassle or expense to comply with that law.

Larry

 

[blackpowderscout]

You mentioned that you do not need a flag on your boat to run Kissimmee. Are you aware of how many airboat accidents and deaths have occurred on the "Dead River" in recent years?

Yes I am aware of these deaths and I'm sorry but a flag wouldn't have done squat!! What kills on Dead River are the sharp turns and not being able to see through the trees. You'd have to have a mighty tall flag to help there.

Also, the proposed legislation called for ALL watercraft that operate in areas of obscured or limited visibility display an orange flag visible above the vegetation. That includes canoes, kayaks, jon boats, bass boats, rubber rafts and airboats.

This is fine if the law is enforced across the board, I really doubt it will be.

You mentioned that you operate your boat on Lake Kissimmee. Are you aware that Polk County had the highest number of drowning deaths in the state of Florida in 2005? Need I mention the 2 airboaters who drowned near Bartow last fall? Maybe wearing PFDs while operating a vessel that can sink in 3-10 seconds is not a bad idea.

A man makes a decision to get on his boat with or without a PFD. Children can't make an reasonable decision on this so yes they must wear them but if I can choose to smoke a cigarette that kills me then I can choose not to wear a PFD.

BigFeather... I am not here to pick a fight. We all have our minds set on this subject but I think it is wrong. I don't think making everyone legal all the time by requiring a "smaller flag" is right. If I am perfectly legal now where I run then why should I have to change?? If I want to ride somewhere else then I'll buy a flag. I won't fly one.

JoeH...100% agreement.

 

[Waterthunder]

Having all boaters follow the same law is the best thing that can happen to us because we will be united and stronger. You lose your rights when you singled out and separated. We have been running flags for years around my neck of the woods it don't hurt. As for kids without life vests that's a no brainier if you love your kids. I heard a great point once when they passed the mandatory bicycles helmet law for kids. A citizen provided statistics and proved people over the age 50 accounted for the majority of head injury fatalities on bicycles and they are the ones who need to wear helmets, even though that's the case I thought why not have kids wear helmets on bikes. Common sense and law are to entirely different things.

 

[stan]

I realy don't mind running a flag just didn't like making it a first degree misdemeaner ,1 year in jail and a 1000.00 fine to be caught with out one.I'LL KEEP A ONE OR TWO SPARES ON THE BOAT JUST IN CASE I LOSE ONE ,CAN'T STAND NO JAIL TIME FOR RECKLESS OPPERATION.

 

[SwampMatt]

Here are some excerpts from SB1958 that may be of interest:

327.391 Airboats regulated.--

(1) An airboat must at all times be operated in a reasonable and prudent manner. Maneuvers that unreasonably or unnecessarily endanger life, limb, or property, including, but not limited to, weaving through congested vessel traffic, swerving at the last possible moment to avoid collision, and not keeping proper lookout, constitute reckless operation of a vessel as provided in s. 327.33(1). Any person operating an airboat must comply with the provisions of s. 327.33.

NOTE:
How is AVOIDING A COLLISION "Reckless"???!!!!???

(2) The exhaust of every internal combustion engine used on any airboat operated on the waters of this state shall be provided with a stock factory muffler, underwater exhaust, or other manufactured device capable of adequately muffling the sound of the exhaust of the engine as described in s. 327.02(24). The use of cutouts is prohibited, except for vessels competing in a regatta or official boat race, and for such vessels while on trial runs.

That is nice to hear.

(4) An airboat may not operate on the waters of the state unless it is equipped with a mast or flagpole bearing a flag at a height of at least 10 feet above the deck. The flag must be square or rectangular, at least 20 inches in height and width, international orange in color, and displayed so that the visibility of the flag is not obscured in any direction.



(5) The provisions of this section and ss. 327.01, 327.02, 327.30-327.40, 327.44-327.50, 327.54, 327.56, 327.65, 328.40-328.48, 328.52-328.58, 328.62, and 328.64 shall govern airboat operation and equipment and all other matters relating thereto whenever any airboat is operated on the waters of the state or when any activity regulated under this section takes place on the waters of the state. Nothing in this section or any of such sections shall be construed to prevent the adoption of any ordinance or local law relating to airboat operation and equipment, except that such ordinances or local laws may not apply to the Florida Intracoastal Waterway and shall be operative only when they are not in conflict with this chapter or any rule adopted pursuant thereto. An ordinance or local law adopted pursuant to this section or any other state law may not discriminate against airboats as defined in s. 327.02.

So local counties can still make laws, but they cannot single out airboats?

(6) This section does not apply to a performer engaged in a professional exhibition or a person preparing to participate or participating in a regatta, race, marine parade, tournament, or exhibition held in compliance with s. 327.48.

Sound like there is going to be a lot more airboat circus activity! LOL this one is nice to hear - you can take your race boat out on trial runs without fear. We ought to officially apply for "regatta permits" from time to time so the old timers with NO mufflers can ride with us - legally.

Section 4. Paragraph (v) is added to subsection (1) of section 327.73, Florida Statutes, to read:
327.73 Noncriminal infractions.--
(1) Violations of the following provisions of the vessel laws of this state are noncriminal infractions:
(v) Section 327.391(4), relating to airboat flags. Any person cited for a violation of any such provision shall be deemed to be charged with a noncriminal infraction, shall be cited for such an infraction, and shall be cited to appear before the county court. The civil penalty for any such infraction is $50, except as otherwise provided in this section. Any person who fails to appear or otherwise properly respond to a uniform boating citation shall, in addition to the charge relating to the violation of the boating laws of this state, be charged with the offense of failing to respond to such citation and, upon conviction, be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. A written warning to this effect shall be provided at the time such uniform boating citation is issued.

I'm a little worried about this one. No flag could lead to a 2nd degree misdemeanor?!!!?? If my flag is damaged by a tree branch, and while on my way back to the dock, a bass boat creams into me out in the open water, it'd be blamed on me not having a flag and I'd be automatically at fault? I'm a little curious about some of the penalties for NOT having a flag.

Gennerally, the type of riding we do - a flag is not much a problem. I don't think we've been out without one - law or not. They increase visibility and with our boat being a slower one out there, I don't mind being more visible. 20 x 20 is a bit of a pain. That's pretty big. And the flag still needs to be 10 geet above the floor of the boat AT LEAST. It says it must be visible from 360 degrees around the boat.

I do know that when riding on a trail and approaching a blind corner where it looks like a bottleneck, I'll often toot the train horn to give warning to whatever may be lurking on the blind side.

The law looks mostly good. Life is give and take, ya know? The big question and goal is to end the complaints against airboaters, right? Do you think this will get the job done?


Larry - I understand that muffler thing and no homowners in the glades. I have a feeling that that part of the law will be overlooked a lot by enforcement.... unless you are being a real jerk and they want to hassle you. Time will tell.

matt.

 

[blackpowderscout]

Good points Matt. I think the Southern Airboat Monthly Runs should be changed to SA Monthly Regattas.

The law states that no airboat shall operate...on the waters of the state without a flag... so when I'm parked hunting or fishing I will take it down. And when I'm back running in the woods I'll take it down. No problem. I ain't putting no more money towards future lobbying since all I got this time was about $300 that I had to spend to get mufflers and the threat of jail time for not having a flag. I'll save my money for the legal fees I'll need to beat this stuff in court.

Adam

 

[stan]

well BPS It aint law yet still gota go through the house and senate to be voted on then to jeb for signin .we'll see what happens , all in all the descimination element is a good thing

 

[SwampMatt]

Here are links to the 2 bills.

House:
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/ ... ssion=2006

Senate:
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/ ... ssion=2006

6' or 10' - - Which is it?

"punishable as provided in s. 327.33(1)"
From this page of statutes: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/ind ... ch0327.htm
it says:

327.33  Reckless or careless operation of vessel.--

(1)  It is unlawful to operate a vessel in a reckless manner. A person is guilty of reckless operation of a vessel who operates any vessel, or manipulates any water skis, aquaplane, or similar device, in willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property at a speed or in a manner as to endanger, or likely to endanger, life or limb, or damage the property of, or injure any person. Reckless operation of a vessel includes, but is not limited to, a violation of s. 327.331(6). Any person who violates a provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

and punishment # 775.082 and .083 are listed here:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/ind ... ch0775.htm

.082 is jail time

4)  A person who has been convicted of a designated misdemeanor may be sentenced as follows:

(a)  For a misdemeanor of the first degree, by a definite term of imprisonment not exceeding 1 year;

.083 is cash fines

(d)  $1,000, when the conviction is of a misdemeanor of the first degree.

That's pretty severe for NOT having an orange flag!!!!!! You can buy a lot of ornage flags for $1000. And a lot more when you lose a year's wages sitting in jail.

And the muffler law only carries a $50 fine?

What just happened?!!!?? How much will it cost me if I fart?

matt.

 

[stan]

If it stinks it'll cost you a bunch .lol
I'd keep me some spare flags on hand if I were you mood,and maybe a poll or two just in case.

 

[Anonymous]

Folks,

There is a roller coaster ride going on in Tallahassee as we speak concerning our issue. We worked with Bonnie today on the flag & penalty langauge. (Non criminal $50 fine) Everything changes by the hour up here, so to stay current on this forum is near impossible.
Please stay involved when we ask for help as the elected officials MUST hear from their constituants.
We may have a delegation of airboaters head to Tallahassee in the next few weeks. If you're interested in comming to get a small taste of the process, feel free to contact me.
I'll keep you posted.

PW

813-968-6154

 

[Rich Andrews]

I hate Orange flags...........they should be Garnet in color. Garnet seems to rank higer than orange every year!!

 

[Ruagatr]

Richie, How come there isnt any Garnet in the sweet sixteen....only Orange and Blue? Seriously folks, this law will help us in the long run. I for one, along with Jack Moller, have been working to get it passed. No question that the flag will be 50 bucks and non-criminal. Also no question that the biggest reason to pass this law is to defeat all these cities and counties singleing out airboats. All in all, this law is a good thing if you look at the big picture. As a past president of the Broward County Airboat club and a board certified civil trial lawyer, thats my personal 2 cents. Charles Morehead

 

[Whitebear]

Orange flags dont add any more to safety than wearing hunter orange does. The only time I have ever been shot at when huting was when I was wearing hunter Orange. I freely admit it makes one more visible, I seriously disagree being more visible adds ANY to safety. It simply does not.

Scotty

 

[stan]

Thanks gatorstick for staying on top of things .
Two sundays ago I was tasked to follow a fellow airboater through the marsh and woods of citrus county I for one was very glad that he carried a tall and bright flag other wise I would have gotten lost more than once.Maybe they should be 20' above deck ? not!

 

[SwampMatt]

PW said in the other topic about the discrimination part was taken out of the bill. I know these things change quickly, I'm not sure why. But if this is true, we'll be facing risking a ticket if we have no 20" x 20" flag, and smaller boats hiding in the grass don't require one. I'm confused.

The more I see that bit about the 20 x 20 size the more it seems like a banner!

I hope it gets back into the bill. of all the components about this legislation - that anti-discrimination part was what made me want to support it. Without it, I'm very tempted to write/call that list of senators to vote NO on the bill!!!!!

I am not against orange flags. We'll still fly one. But I'm against the forcing it, and then thinking it'll solve something.

Waiting for more news before doing anything though.

matt.

 

[Aces over 8s]

I hate Orange flags...........they should be Garnet in color. Garnet seems to rank higer than orange every year!!

That wide right thing still got ya down. :lol: