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Troubleshooter Needed
- Thread starter cowboy
- Start date
Sure wish I was there to help out with this one Cowboy. Generators are a way of life in my business. If it comes down to it, and nobody jumps in, let me know I'll step ya right through gettin er runnin sweet again.
Fermont/white, Onan/Allis, Worthington, RR, Kohler, they all do the same thing.
Let me know.
Scotty
Fermont/white, Onan/Allis, Worthington, RR, Kohler, they all do the same thing.
Let me know.
Scotty
gtoslider
Well-known member
Cowboy ,, give this website a shot, I was having some problems with a generator and these guys helped me out.
http://www.smokstak.com
Lots of good people on this site that are willing to help out,alot like this site.
http://www.smokstak.com
Lots of good people on this site that are willing to help out,alot like this site.
cowboy
Moderator
Tanks for the replys y'all.
The generator end is a 1991 Partner Alternator, by LeRoy Somer
Model: LSA 41- OL4A
40607/04
22KW 3 phase, 12 lead head.
It was packaged behind a Kabota by Coleman Engineering from Memphis.
They seem to be out of the biz now.
The observed voltages seemed screwy to me for either single phase, or three phase operation.
I really have not fooled with it much at all.
I'm not sure if it has a problem with the AVR that's on it, or if it's got an open winding, or whatever. The inside of the AVR looked kinda crusty if you know what I mean. Not excactly sure where to start on the troubleshooting, and it out in a remote location
I was hoping that a generator man would like to go out into some of the prettiest marsh I know of, and take a look at it. Hopefully declare it junk, or advise on what should be done to revive it. It's a big heavy gen head, and I guess it would just be easier to un-couple it, and haul it out off the marsh to be inspected.
If we get that head going, Canefan has a dry type 25kva x-frmer that we can go 480 output, and step down to 120 / 240. We would have power to burn if we go that route.
I've been considering ditching the Somer, and hitching a 15kw ST type head to the prime mover.
It's a sweet little kabota V-1902.
Hour meter say less than 300 hours, and the engine looks it. It purrs like a kitten.
Any of y'all got an informed opinion on those chinese ST type alternators?
Any help y'all can give is sure appreciated.
The generator end is a 1991 Partner Alternator, by LeRoy Somer
Model: LSA 41- OL4A
40607/04
22KW 3 phase, 12 lead head.
It was packaged behind a Kabota by Coleman Engineering from Memphis.
They seem to be out of the biz now.
The observed voltages seemed screwy to me for either single phase, or three phase operation.
I really have not fooled with it much at all.
I'm not sure if it has a problem with the AVR that's on it, or if it's got an open winding, or whatever. The inside of the AVR looked kinda crusty if you know what I mean. Not excactly sure where to start on the troubleshooting, and it out in a remote location
I was hoping that a generator man would like to go out into some of the prettiest marsh I know of, and take a look at it. Hopefully declare it junk, or advise on what should be done to revive it. It's a big heavy gen head, and I guess it would just be easier to un-couple it, and haul it out off the marsh to be inspected.
If we get that head going, Canefan has a dry type 25kva x-frmer that we can go 480 output, and step down to 120 / 240. We would have power to burn if we go that route.
I've been considering ditching the Somer, and hitching a 15kw ST type head to the prime mover.
It's a sweet little kabota V-1902.
Hour meter say less than 300 hours, and the engine looks it. It purrs like a kitten.
Any of y'all got an informed opinion on those chinese ST type alternators?
Any help y'all can give is sure appreciated.
Rich Andrews
Well-known member
does it have a powershift or sensinich on it?
Cowboy, dont start uncoupling anything just yet. There is a regulator on the injector pump ya need to eliminate first. If the engine aint running at an exact steady RPM you aint going to have steady voltages anywhere.
Use a strobe light or some other way to see RPM stability. Analog tachs arent very good for this. A strobe light on the harmonic balancer and a chalk mark just like checking timing on a gas engine will tell ya how stable it is.
If it is stable then is the time to get into the other end.
If the AVR is fried, old or not up to par there are dirt cheep PLC controllers these days that can be dropped right in and replace all of the old AVR stiff.
Find ya a current Gen man and he can do it in a hour or so.
Sounds like its modern enough to be a synchronous genset. If its been sitting unused for a long time, you can also flash the exciter field with just a 9V transister radio battery if things dont come up right.
You can measure the exciter field with just a multimeter on the closest scale and see how stable that is, then ya know if yer fighting alternator or exciter. If the exciter voltage is fluctuating in line with the O/P of the genset it aint the alternator its the Exciter or AVR. You can check the o/p of the AVR with a multimeter too and see if it is doing anything different than the exciter or the alternator o/p.
Anyway, get ya someone who knows synchronous generators, they can fix ya up pretty quickly.
EDIT ADD: Oh if the Chineeses Gensets are the ones being sold by Hardey Diesel they are IMHO ok for intermittent use but not much for prime power. Id be VERY careful. I use a lot of 12-60KW Kohler diesels over here. They have nice lil Ford diesels in them and are all PLC controlled. Have some with MAJOR hours on them. Parts are available too. Those Chineeses sets don't use standard American made parts. We have a mountain of them piled up from folks thought they was going to save the taxpayers a few bucks buying them. There are Kohler dealers all over Florida. We use the guy in Arlanda.
Scotty
This is a double 4 cylinder diesel setup in a single shroud. Just an example
Use a strobe light or some other way to see RPM stability. Analog tachs arent very good for this. A strobe light on the harmonic balancer and a chalk mark just like checking timing on a gas engine will tell ya how stable it is.
If it is stable then is the time to get into the other end.
If the AVR is fried, old or not up to par there are dirt cheep PLC controllers these days that can be dropped right in and replace all of the old AVR stiff.
Find ya a current Gen man and he can do it in a hour or so.
Sounds like its modern enough to be a synchronous genset. If its been sitting unused for a long time, you can also flash the exciter field with just a 9V transister radio battery if things dont come up right.
You can measure the exciter field with just a multimeter on the closest scale and see how stable that is, then ya know if yer fighting alternator or exciter. If the exciter voltage is fluctuating in line with the O/P of the genset it aint the alternator its the Exciter or AVR. You can check the o/p of the AVR with a multimeter too and see if it is doing anything different than the exciter or the alternator o/p.
Anyway, get ya someone who knows synchronous generators, they can fix ya up pretty quickly.
EDIT ADD: Oh if the Chineeses Gensets are the ones being sold by Hardey Diesel they are IMHO ok for intermittent use but not much for prime power. Id be VERY careful. I use a lot of 12-60KW Kohler diesels over here. They have nice lil Ford diesels in them and are all PLC controlled. Have some with MAJOR hours on them. Parts are available too. Those Chineeses sets don't use standard American made parts. We have a mountain of them piled up from folks thought they was going to save the taxpayers a few bucks buying them. There are Kohler dealers all over Florida. We use the guy in Arlanda.
Scotty
This is a double 4 cylinder diesel setup in a single shroud. Just an example
cowboy
Moderator
Hey Scotty,
I don't have a book, Or diagram, so I'm a little lost on wich lead does the exciting.
Thats kinda my problem. I did suspect that the flashing may be needed, but not sure where to apply that voltage.
Can the engine RPM be set by the O/P frequency? I figred the engine speed would be governed by that. I figured that the 60 hertz was the deal, and then varify the voltages. I guess that could occcur a little higher, or lower than 1800 rpm. I guess your main point was stability of the engine speed.
Would that show up in the O/P frequency?
I have been considering rplacement of the AVR as an option, rather than giving up on that gen-head. Well hoping
Those folks you mentioned troubleshoot this head in their shop?
I jerk it out of the marsh, and carry it on up to them.
Better yet... when you gett'in back? January?
Sounds to me like you'd be all over this.
Oh yeah,
The china stuff.
I was just talking about the brush type ST head people are bringing in from china. The 2 brushes only carry the excitation currents, and the use a bridge rectifyer to control the amount of voltage for exciting the field.
No AVR. I'm sure they don't produce a perfectly smooth power supply, but all that I have read about them isds that they would power anything we need to run just fine.
Heck, the utilities power is'nt always all that smooth anyhow.
Ive been checking Gen-heads out on some alternative energy sites, and everybody talks them up real good.
I hear ya on the gen-set from china thing.
No way I'm gonna buy one of those. I don't want to chase parts for the engine that nobody has, and from what I've heard it will need parts. Lots of parts, and in a short period of time.
When you gett'in back again? 8)
I don't have a book, Or diagram, so I'm a little lost on wich lead does the exciting.
Thats kinda my problem. I did suspect that the flashing may be needed, but not sure where to apply that voltage.
Can the engine RPM be set by the O/P frequency? I figred the engine speed would be governed by that. I figured that the 60 hertz was the deal, and then varify the voltages. I guess that could occcur a little higher, or lower than 1800 rpm. I guess your main point was stability of the engine speed.
Would that show up in the O/P frequency?
I have been considering rplacement of the AVR as an option, rather than giving up on that gen-head. Well hoping
Those folks you mentioned troubleshoot this head in their shop?
I jerk it out of the marsh, and carry it on up to them.
Better yet... when you gett'in back? January?
Sounds to me like you'd be all over this.
Oh yeah,
The china stuff.
I was just talking about the brush type ST head people are bringing in from china. The 2 brushes only carry the excitation currents, and the use a bridge rectifyer to control the amount of voltage for exciting the field.
No AVR. I'm sure they don't produce a perfectly smooth power supply, but all that I have read about them isds that they would power anything we need to run just fine.
Heck, the utilities power is'nt always all that smooth anyhow.
Ive been checking Gen-heads out on some alternative energy sites, and everybody talks them up real good.
I hear ya on the gen-set from china thing.
No way I'm gonna buy one of those. I don't want to chase parts for the engine that nobody has, and from what I've heard it will need parts. Lots of parts, and in a short period of time.
When you gett'in back again? 8)
IM scheduled outa here sometime mid Jan. Cant say here but I can PM ya the info.
Yeh I been in and out of these things for a LOT of years. When I was at Harris they sent me to a bunch of factory schools to get certified on several different manufacturers stuff. Id love to lend a hand if I was there, you bet Id be on it like a chicken on a june bug.
No The folks I deal with a just a manufacturer only but a phone call to ANY Kohler dealer might produce someone willing to take ya up on the offer for a ride in the marsh.
Trouble with brushes and alternators is they always gotta be replaced, they corrode, and they have an armature that has to be kept really clean. Its mostly mind over matter though. If you don't mind, then it don't matter. I'm a brushless man myself but lord knows I have made and replaced a million brushes. Sometimes a redneck with a pocket knife can make what a factory witl millions of dollars worth of tools can't.
Without a book your kinda shooting in the dark. If ya reverse the battery when flashing ya can pop one of the diodes. Better get someone who can reverse engineer ya a drawing.
Give yer local Kohler folks a call and see what hey have, can do or where they can point ya.
Scotty
Yeh I been in and out of these things for a LOT of years. When I was at Harris they sent me to a bunch of factory schools to get certified on several different manufacturers stuff. Id love to lend a hand if I was there, you bet Id be on it like a chicken on a june bug.
No The folks I deal with a just a manufacturer only but a phone call to ANY Kohler dealer might produce someone willing to take ya up on the offer for a ride in the marsh.
Trouble with brushes and alternators is they always gotta be replaced, they corrode, and they have an armature that has to be kept really clean. Its mostly mind over matter though. If you don't mind, then it don't matter. I'm a brushless man myself but lord knows I have made and replaced a million brushes. Sometimes a redneck with a pocket knife can make what a factory witl millions of dollars worth of tools can't.
Without a book your kinda shooting in the dark. If ya reverse the battery when flashing ya can pop one of the diodes. Better get someone who can reverse engineer ya a drawing.
Give yer local Kohler folks a call and see what hey have, can do or where they can point ya.
Scotty
Sounds like ya found some good help Cowboy.
I'll answer you question about the 60 Hz thing.
Speed is related to the frequency obviously, but it is also related to the voltage. I'm guessing since its an older genset it may have a sympathetic reed freq meter. They work fine when new but their accuracy can fade with age. Hence the strobe looking for stability.
You can also set the freq with an electric clock with a seconhand and a stop watch. That won't show ya stability though.
There is a mode these damned things can get in where they are hunting and never stabilize. Thats cause there is the electro mechanical feedback through the PLC. There has to be a dampener both on the injector pump and in the electronics. When its large you can hear it and see it on the meters. When its small you can't hear it but the meters will be squirely. The strobe is the definitive debugger. With this being a loop ya can get yerself in a mode where your chasing your tail and pulling your hair out.
Better to have someone that does it day to day jump in and help out.
Looks ya got just that offered. Hope it all works out man.
Scotty
I'll answer you question about the 60 Hz thing.
Speed is related to the frequency obviously, but it is also related to the voltage. I'm guessing since its an older genset it may have a sympathetic reed freq meter. They work fine when new but their accuracy can fade with age. Hence the strobe looking for stability.
You can also set the freq with an electric clock with a seconhand and a stop watch. That won't show ya stability though.
There is a mode these damned things can get in where they are hunting and never stabilize. Thats cause there is the electro mechanical feedback through the PLC. There has to be a dampener both on the injector pump and in the electronics. When its large you can hear it and see it on the meters. When its small you can't hear it but the meters will be squirely. The strobe is the definitive debugger. With this being a loop ya can get yerself in a mode where your chasing your tail and pulling your hair out.
Better to have someone that does it day to day jump in and help out.
Looks ya got just that offered. Hope it all works out man.
Scotty
cowboy
Moderator
Thanks Scotty,
Sure hope them boy's can stop by and put an eyeball on it sometime. If not, I'll jerk that gen-head out of the marsh, and bring it to thier shop.
It just seems to me that it will be easier to trouble shoot when it's still coupled to the mover. I don't want to have to pull the whole machine out of the marsh.
If I can't hook up with those folks, well it looks like were going for an airboat ride in Feburary!
Headline February 07:
Brevard County Man Missing!
Don't worry folks, we'll bring him back home safe and sound after the generator is running right. 8)
Shoot, Scotty. If you see where this generator is located, you may not want to go back home!
I always have to force myself to leave when I go down there.
Sure hope them boy's can stop by and put an eyeball on it sometime. If not, I'll jerk that gen-head out of the marsh, and bring it to thier shop.
It just seems to me that it will be easier to trouble shoot when it's still coupled to the mover. I don't want to have to pull the whole machine out of the marsh.
If I can't hook up with those folks, well it looks like were going for an airboat ride in Feburary!
Headline February 07:
Brevard County Man Missing!
Don't worry folks, we'll bring him back home safe and sound after the generator is running right. 8)
Shoot, Scotty. If you see where this generator is located, you may not want to go back home!
I always have to force myself to leave when I go down there.
Does this look familier?
http://www.leroy-somer.com/documentation_pdf/alternateurs_pdw/notices_pdf/0098c_fr_en.pdf
I found this manual online. It took a while to load and a couple of trys but it should be for the right model. It gives you the info you need to check it out.
Where is this camp? On your sig it says Jensen beach. is the camp up there or in the glades.
Tim
http://www.leroy-somer.com/documentation_pdf/alternateurs_pdw/notices_pdf/0098c_fr_en.pdf
I found this manual online. It took a while to load and a couple of trys but it should be for the right model. It gives you the info you need to check it out.
Where is this camp? On your sig it says Jensen beach. is the camp up there or in the glades.
Tim
cowboy
Moderator
Awesome,
That looks like the right book there Bravo.
I've got it printed out, and will start to study on it as I can.
The camp is in the Indian Marsh, a little north of the micro-wave canal.
Hope we can hook up sometime.
Even with the book, I could still use some advice, or help with it.
I'll take all the help I can get.
I'm gonna start to study on it just the same.
Thanks for dredging up thjat manual. Thats Huge!
That looks like the right book there Bravo.
I've got it printed out, and will start to study on it as I can.
The camp is in the Indian Marsh, a little north of the micro-wave canal.
Hope we can hook up sometime.
Even with the book, I could still use some advice, or help with it.
I'll take all the help I can get.
I'm gonna start to study on it just the same.
Thanks for dredging up thjat manual. Thats Huge!
I want to go out riding somewhere either Sat or Sun. If you are going to be around and would like a hand I would love to hook up and take a look at it. I feel that with the book I would be able to figure out what is wrong with it and we could see if we can get the parts.
You can call me 954-325-4975 or nextel 158*30*56681
Tim
You can call me 954-325-4975 or nextel 158*30*56681
Tim