AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

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Comanche-pup
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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by Comanche-pup » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:22 am

Nordic camo bear, nickel plated 1911 with pearl hand grips, just throwing some pun. People go crazy with there fables of rounds taking game down, today guys are taking pigs out with that newer Benjamin .357 air rifle, you tube it, that's an awesome air rifle, it's all in preference anymore, it's funny how people say a certain rifle doesn't have enough knock down power, all these game animals can be taken with a bow, shot placement is key

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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by Scarecrow » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:45 am

Commanche is that .357 or .177? :scratch: :rebel:

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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by Comanche-pup » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:59 am

It's a .357 scarecrow

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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by Comanche-pup » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:06 am

ImageImage

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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by Scarecrow » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:54 am

10-4 very impressive looking air rifle. :thumbleft: :rebel:

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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by kwanjangnihm » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:56 am

Comanche-pup wrote:shot placement is key
x2 :rebel:
" I don't care who you are back in the world, you give away our position one more time, I'll bleed ya, real quiet. Leave ya here. Got that? "

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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by Whitebear » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:43 pm

Comanche-pup wrote:Nordic camo bear, nickel plated 1911 with pearl hand grips, just throwing some pun. People go crazy with there fables of rounds taking game down, today guys are taking pigs out with that newer Benjamin .357 air rifle, you tube it, that's an awesome air rifle, it's all in preference anymore, it's funny how people say a certain rifle doesn't have enough knock down power, all these game animals can be taken with a bow, shot placement is key
Those words are like the Sirens singing to my ears. I am a hard core 1911 fan, but my interest this decade is one of the cut down models like the Colt Commander or Combat Commander. Been looking to replace the one I had since 1996 and still cant find the right deal. Can we say WAY over priced even for a used one, most likely used up one. Maybe some day...............

I'm following the thread nightly and reading everyone's thoughts. Plus I am chasing info in today's fad world. Too many new cartridges that are hybrids and or wildcats and wanna bees for me.
Looked around and as far as I can see nobody is currently chambering anything in 6mm Remington, seems they all went with the short neck .243s for some unknown reason. Likely just catering to the masses, definitely to the hand loaders.

The evolution of the .223 is amazing. Its almost overwhelming at the number of AR platforms out there. I only see a couple that are specifically made from the ground up for accuracy and it doesn't look like they are actually chambered in .223.

I do find interesting the results some are getting from the 70Gr .223 bullets when pushed at really high velocities. I have used partition bullets in my hand loading for my old 6mm I had with excellent results and it appears the Barnes X whatever they are, are about the same thing as partition bullets.

I have read up on both the Vanguard and the Remington 700 and model 7. Weatherby has gone plain stupid with their composite and laminated stuff. When someone said the Vanguards aren't what they used to be, thats the stone cold truth. Remington claims to have a solution to the trigger issue but to me it was never much of a problem, just something some media A-hole dreamed up to write about. Its nothing anyone couldn't solve themselves right on their own gun bench its so simple. Or just order a good trigger replacement. Both Remington and Weatherby are in outer space for a good wooden furniture gun. I doubt either are selling many at the prices they are recommending. Probably selling a few composites or laminates along though.

Its looking more and more like if I were to go bolt action the best path might be to order a barreled action from somebody like Shileen (sp) or some other company that at least pays some attention to what leaves their shop and then creating my own stock from a blank. Blanks are expensive too but I know how to cut a piece of wood and cure it. Is it worth this path? Hell I don't know. Its an awful lot of work for a shooter. Maybe

Seems like the AR plasti-guns are plentiful and I do like the idea of a single lower and multiple tops and barrels. Still trying to find if other calibers and which ones are available for change outs. There is no reason at all an AR cant be coaxed to shoot 1/4 MOA groups. At least in theory. Smithing these creations may be a bit more bothersome than a bolt gun in fine wood furniture. It sure would be different and a new skill to learn. It also seems like you can run up a pretty big tab buying AR parts to make something you like. While there are some nice Green coatings out there, it sure would seem they would be offering everything in Black or Green right off the shelf. I got a lot more learning to do when it comes to ARs.

What all this means is keep the posts and ideas coming. At this point nothing is ruled in or out. I don't have to buy anything tonight. Got plenty of time to figure things out. Don't hold back if you have tricks for bolt guns or ARs. I'm competent, but I don't know it all, and likely never will. There seems to be something I can learn from nearly anyone.

One question. Is the .Mil 5.55 ammo in a different brass case then the .223? Different priming system? Case internal profile? Thickness? Someone mentioned different head spacing. Im sure it is not a different method so is it just a different set of go/no go numbers for the .Mil stuff??
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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by jaxduramax » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:08 pm

If I ventured into Weatherby territory I wouldn't stick with .223 ballistics. Any number of Weatherby Magnum cartridges will do a better job and if you plan on traveling to hunt. A host of game out there can't be hunted with a .223. You listed all of the AR strengths as unnecessary for you so I think you answered your own question there. Anzio 20/50 is your answer :shock: . Will reliably anchor all game on your list whitbear, and accurate past a mile. Ammo is a little expensive though. :D

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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by Cowboy Rock » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:57 pm

Kwanj,,, Damned good Rooter,,, Way to go Bro,,,
Wet Dreams Too,,,

14 ft. Panther,,, 370ci SBC, 72 in Whirlwind Whispertip, Line-X-350 X bottom,,,

"Full bloodied Dog hunting man"

Dry Branch, Ga.

Thats how I roll,,,

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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by Cowboy Rock » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:07 pm

Scotty the insides of a 556 brass is differant than a 223,,,

Down around the primer it is thicker and has a differant shape,,,

Suppossedly to handle the higher pressure,,,
Wet Dreams Too,,,

14 ft. Panther,,, 370ci SBC, 72 in Whirlwind Whispertip, Line-X-350 X bottom,,,

"Full bloodied Dog hunting man"

Dry Branch, Ga.

Thats how I roll,,,

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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by gobblerD » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:34 pm

AirRanger wrote:WB, Is it legal to tale turkey with centerfire on private land? I only ask because all WMA brochures that I have read state shotgun, muzzle load, or rimfire in those areas. I don't know much about private property, wish I had a reason too.
You can still hunt on "private land" with a rifle for turkey.
You cannot on public land. Even so the lease holders on the private land I hunt changed their rules this year and no longer allow turkeys to be hunted with rifles on our lease.

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trailerdon
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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by trailerdon » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:49 pm

Sounds like you have a soft spot for "wood" . that leave's out the AR platform and eleminates the problem of 5.56 or 223 . The vangaurd delux has beautiful wood, at a price. Also the vangaurd is made by Howa, maybe check out there products?. And lets not forget Browning, they make some excellent rifles and have always been known for great blueing and beautiful wood on applicable rifles. As for the Barnes bullet; all copper and an exceptional hunting bullet, retains 99% weight and is very accurate in most rifles.

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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by jaxduramax » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:24 am

Because this was brought up earlier. IIRC, the differences in 5.56 and .223 are in the chamber. 5.56 is loaded hotter because the throat on a 5.56 chamber is longer not allowing projectile engagement into the lands and grooves, thus not affecting chamber pressure. That also makes the recoil results and rearward pressure on the bolt face a little more consistent for cycling repeatability. 223 chambers are shorter, requiring a milder load because engaging the lands and grooves (or a shorter gap to jump) increases chamber pressure but also increases accuracy. If you find your COAL by backing off .010-.015 off the lands you won't be tripped up by the difference in 5.56 and .223. When I hand load, I start 1gr above start, going at .5 gr increments up to max. Then take my most accurate and go .2 up and down from there to find my load. The whole time looking for pressure signs is a must. I am sure you do this or a variation of this for your bolt guns. I say this not to instruct but to point out that you are going to see pressure signs before you reach "5.56 ammo destroyed my .223 bolt gun" territory. If you have any techniques that might help me I'd be interested to hear them, maybe in a PM.

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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by Cowboy Rock » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:23 pm

Jax,,,

Hey Partner, you are way out ahead of me in the pressure dept.

I am still going by standard specs on length and just going up and down with my Powder Grs,,,

I like reading from someone who knowws what they are talking about,,,

Thanks,,, I will hafta go into a deeper study on this pressure matter,,,

Thanks again,,,

Cowboy r :GA:
Wet Dreams Too,,,

14 ft. Panther,,, 370ci SBC, 72 in Whirlwind Whispertip, Line-X-350 X bottom,,,

"Full bloodied Dog hunting man"

Dry Branch, Ga.

Thats how I roll,,,

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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by Whitebear » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:12 pm

jaxduramax wrote:Because this was brought up earlier. IIRC, the differences in 5.56 and .223 are in the chamber. 5.56 is loaded hotter because the throat on a 5.56 chamber is longer not allowing projectile engagement into the lands and grooves, thus not affecting chamber pressure. That also makes the recoil results and rearward pressure on the bolt face a little more consistent for cycling repeatability. 223 chambers are shorter, requiring a milder load because engaging the lands and grooves (or a shorter gap to jump) increases chamber pressure but also increases accuracy. If you find your COAL by backing off .010-.015 off the lands you won't be tripped up by the difference in 5.56 and .223. When I hand load, I start 1gr above start, going at .5 gr increments up to max. Then take my most accurate and go .2 up and down from there to find my load. The whole time looking for pressure signs is a must. I am sure you do this or a variation of this for your bolt guns. I say this not to instruct but to point out that you are going to see pressure signs before you reach "5.56 ammo destroyed my .223 bolt gun" territory. If you have any techniques that might help me I'd be interested to hear them, maybe in a PM.
I spent most of today checking up on these ARs in a fairly serious manner. I did learn about the case neck lengths, thats a deceiver if ya don't know about it. With my bolt guns, there are variations on what they liked. My 6mm really had two pints it was viable at. One was really light loads and the other was hot as hell case and bore burners. I have always read the cases and chronograph more than sticking to any published data. That stuff came out of someones typewriter and not necessarily the barrel of a gun. It is a viable point to begin with a new unfamiliar round or powder. however. Never found anything worth mentioning with magnum primers in the 223 or 6mm. I generally stuck to the IMR powders and got superb results. Now as far as bullet seating depth. I took a marker and marked the bullet and loaded it in the case with no crimp them slammed it shut and let the bullet tell me where it liked to sit. I got the land mars on the bullet and enough slide mark on the wall of the bullet to interpolate how deep to seat them. I loaded for actual contact engagement with the rifleing and thats where I found my best accuracy. In the 6mm I learned about the longer case neck giving more support for bullet alignment when loading. I was loading .243s for a friend and the 6mm exploiting the longer case neck would consistently out pattern the .243. I honestly tried everything in my bag of tricks to get his 243 to match my 6mm and he had several more inches of barrel length. It just wasn't to be. I only had one pet load for the 223 so theres a bit I never explored with it. But from what I am seeing the 5.56 SHOULD indeed have an accuracy advantage over the 223. If it doesn't, its certainly there to explore. Now that I know the differences, were I building a target bolt gun I would have no qualms about reaming the neck a bit longer to accept the 5.56 case and keep my mouth shut about it.

One thing for sure I still need to investigate with the AR is the differences and advantages of direct impingement and piston operation. From what I have seen the piston operations are a bit more expensive which likely means they are better when it comes to consistency and maybe tuning when using multiple loads etc., etc.

Also I have gone through a You tube assembly series of videos and see there are a few tools that arent needed with my old bolt guns. Nothing weird or strange just a few things done differently. they seem to love roll pins and detents ! LOL Several plastic pieces to hold the lower and uppers while assemblig. Some pin punches and one silly little clip on the rod for the bolt door. LOL. I'm actually having fun digging into what the hell Mr. Stoner had in mind way back when. This is a great thread and great discussion.
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Re: AR15 or Variant -vs- Weatherby

Post by trailerdon » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:15 pm

HMMM, Maybe I was wrong and you do have the AR bug. That is okay, there is nothing you can not do with one, the sky is the limit "as they say". The best part is you can build one exactly the way YOU like. And yes, you can build an absolute tack driver. Also if you one day desire an alternate caliber you can easily push two pins and change the entire upper "in seconds". I like what I've read and herd about the 300 blackout, but have yet to shoot one for myself.

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