ISO Sensenich Q to try out

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SWAMPHUNTER45
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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 »

I have crossed paths with Caddy boats running everything from Rochester 2bbls to dual quads. It's my hobby or as some mght say addiction. I have a tricked out Holley 950 annular and have my engines running with Qjets as well. The Edelbrock when properly tuned works extremely well. For a DD application 650 is plenty. Anymore and your gonna experience symptoms of over carberation.

The 500 Holley is a decent carb
Plenty of old timers ran them because they were simpler to tune compared to the Qjet.

What ever you do, don't think an old core that's been on a shelf is going to perform like a fresh and properly jetted and metered carb. That would be a waste of a gasket.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by radtech »

That's certainly true, Swamphunter. I've been puzzling over the whole thing for quite a while and I'm not really much closer to getting it all figured out. I've thought that the best bet would be to go with the carb that was meant for it. But I've wondered if technology has made for a better carb to work with it. I'm just about as torn as a 20 year old set of overalls at this point. lol

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 »

Mr B loves the Qjet but the problem is the cores are degrading. New parts are dried up and it is not worth fooling with unless you have a stash of supplies. Call the master, 352-797-9910 he is in the shop I just got off the phone with him talking compression ratios for some new forged pistons he is ordering for me. Talk with him maybe have him quote you a price for a 650 AVS ready to go. Then ride down pick it up, see the shop and check out my 542 gear drive set up. Maybe we can talk Deano out of the AC, get him to come along?

Worked for me.....worked for Striker and a bunch of other guys.

PS: just heed the earlier advice and be sure your timing curve is good and you don't have a hidden defect

IF ANY OF THOSE CORES YOU GUYS ARE GIVING AWAY ARE Part# 1813 800cfm or Part# 1826 650cfm I WOULD BE HAPPY TO SEND POSTAGE

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by Slidin Gator »

Swamp,

1826S 4014 stamped onto the base. 650 CFM would be about right, it's a 4 bbl with 1.43" Primary and 1.74" Secondary bore.
I still think I-10 is the Mason Dixon line.
2013 Mike Stossel Boats, 13' x 7' deck over, IO-540, 74" NGQ less winglets.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 »

Gator PM me I will send you the coin to ship and get it a Mr B rebuild or let him have it for parts.

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Deano
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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by Deano »

1
Deano wrote:If your old 2 barrel off your 220 is a 500 Holley and has not been re-tuned for your current engine, that is a much larger part of your problem than you realize. . . unless it was running pig rich on your ground power, it is not supplying enough fuel for you to exercise an early 500 Caddy. . . This could very well explain a good part the difference between your results and mine . . .
2
One Eyed Gator wrote:Take a pic of Acc. pump looks like 30cc. I am with Deano 50cc pump and bigger jets. I ran the 74HP jets,so a 500 would definitely need a little more fuel. Also the correct pump cam. Find someone with a A/F meter they are an awesome tool for tuning.
3
Slidin Gator wrote:In this case the requirement is borderline 2/4 BBL, all 500 CFM rated.
It needs a decent accelerator pump to feed the motor for proper response.
#1, Deano is right, If the Holley on hand is a 500 CFM unit, that is the optimum and it needs to be tuned.
#2, See #1, get a 500 CFM 2 BBL
4
ladyblackwater wrote: If I was you I would stick to buying a Holley 500 2 barrel. I can definitely tune it for you when you come down this way next time. I have everything to tune a Holley Carb with.
Perhaps I'm overly prejudiced since I initially made this observation, but this is looking like a consensus of opinion/experience to me. :scratch:

If you assembled your engine, there is no reason you can't rebuild a 2 bbl carburetor.
There are quite obviously at least four of us here that are willing to offer remote help if need be. Any one of us (including you) could have accomplished that task in less time than this thread has been debating your next move. If you like, I can compile you a parts acquisition list as soon as you get that list number. A rebuild kit, 50cc acl pump upgrade, acl pump cams kit, power valve and 3 sets of jets would cost you around $110. You could rebuild it and even if the initial jetting is not perfect, it will be MUCH closer, and you will have the know how and the jets to adjust it. You will also be able to tailor the pump shot. You gained some knowledge and satisfaction assembling your engine right? Carb won't be any different. Then you'll have two or three hundred dollars more for your 'other' maintenance issues. Beyond that, when you get down south later on, BlackWater has already offered to finish dialing it in for you. You will be very pleasantly surprised what a huge difference a few small parts can make, and will have the grin to prove it.

The ball is in your court at this point. I really don't see what you have to loose by making the attempt. Don't worry about Swamp, he'll get his turn to help you spend money on a carb when you upgrade to a gearbox. :D . . . . Which reminds me . . .

Swamphunter, I have to thank you for the chuckle you gave me earlier when I got back and was catching up on this thread.
This sequence is just short of priceless . . . even with your budget, you act like me sometimes. :?
SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:What ever you do, don't think an old core that's been on a shelf is going to perform like a fresh and properly jetted and metered carb. That would be a waste of a gasket.
Slidin Gator wrote: . . . My point is that the Edelbrock in the picture is free, first come, first served. Come get it or pay shipping. I will spend the time up front to sort out a Q jet vs. spending the rest of my life monkeying around with that Edelbrock that showed up in my bucket.
Image
SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:Gator PM me I will send you the coin to ship and get it a Mr B rebuild or let him have it for parts.
I guess the take away is that "a ziplock bag in a bucket, is better than on a shelf" where parts storage is concerned. :lol: :lol:

Radtech, since your carb hasn't been on "the shelf" that observation isn't applicable in your case anyway, so no worries. :)
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but it is not the path to knowledge; it has no place in the endeavor of science."
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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by radtech »

Deano, I have spoken with blackwater and am inclined to accept the offer of the quadrajet. Just working out the details. I am certain that with a little google/youtube help, I will likely be able to do whatever is necessary to get it ready to bolt on. The reason this thread has gone so long without me doing anything is that I work nights and have been posting between work and sleep. Just waiting for the weekend to get here to start doing anything with it. There just seems to me to be something right about using the carb that was meant for the engine. But, who knows, maybe one day I'll look into that fuel injection idea. Thanks for all the advice and help. I look forward to checking in on this post every day when I can to see what has sprung up

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Deano
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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by Deano »

No explanation needed, we all understand how reality can inadvertently hamper our free time. I was only meaning to afford you the confidence to make the decision, as you seemed reluctant to fall off the fence on either side. It's been said that getting started is the hardest part of anything, and there are very few things I like less than being boatless.

As I already said (and I think got there was across the board agreement), after it's dialed in, you won't do any better. Given that option, that is in fact the best choice to be made. While the entire premise may sound ridiculous to some, part of what I like about the 2 bbl Holley is that I can actually get a little fuel economy out of them, in spite of what they're mounted on. The only carb that has a fair chance of doing better is a Quadrajet. I don't generally drive my boat like a stripped assed ape a large percentage of the time, and an overly large 4 bbl is quite simply not that efficient if you like quiet and run around under 2400 rpm a lot of the time. This is where the Quadrajet has the advantage, by nature of design, it DOES have that ability.

Moving on . . .
Having fooled with them a bit over the years, I can share some of what should be good info with you.

If you like reference material like I do, I highly recommend you buy the book "How to Rebuild and Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carburetors" by Cliff Ruggles. It is considered the best such book by many others better qualified than myself to make such a call.
Image
Back when I was researching such things, that was at the top of the list and I never had the need to go down the list beyond that. Cliff also has a website http://cliffshighperformance.com where you may find some otherwise hard to find parts. I've not Quad shopped in quite a while so I can't comment about his pricing compared to others.

Slidin Gator gave you a good source for Quad parts,
Carbs Unlimited is another one I frequent as well: http://www.carburetion.com/quadrajet.asp

There is also a multitude of good info to had at this link:
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki ... carburetor

On a different note, I was serious about buying that core from you. Whether you want to do it now and offset the cost of some Quadrajet parts/materials, or well later up the road when you go to a gearbox, my offer stands. Just send me a PM and let me know.

I would suggest (although I likely don't need to) that you start a new thread in "Automotive" when you get into the Quad. No need in having an unrelated 3 page preamble on that thread, and it will probably get more views by the right audience than here in "Prop Talk".

And again, congratulations on making a good call. :thumbleft:
"The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion and politics,
but it is not the path to knowledge; it has no place in the endeavor of science."
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radtech
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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by radtech »

Thanks, Deano. If you are interested in the old carb, I'll sure let you get it. I'll have to hold onto it for the moment as I intend to have the boat ridable at all times until I have what I need to swap the carbs. If at all possible I try to always keep the boat where I can just hook up and go ride without issues. I'll send you a PM with my number and all and we'll discuss the 2 barrel as soon as I have a replacement for it. Look forward to talkin with ya, brother!

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by radtech »

I certainly appreciate the input, Swamp. In this day, however, money often plays a major role in the decisions we make. I DO have other reasons for going with the quadrajet, but I must admit that the opportunity and price swayed me. I may indeed make the change later on, or I may go all out when I can finally afford to completely build a new boat and do the injection system. I have read all posts and responded accordingly, but it appears there were several options posted, not an overwhelming decision that the holley 650 was the best option. In fact, there seemed to be more insight into rebuilding my old carb to do what needs to be done. I have wanted for several years to find an original q-jet to fit my engine and that is another thing that made the decision. Also, I have a friend in south GA that has squirreled away quite a few parts for them over the years and could easily help get things underway if there are issues during my frequent trips to Seminole where he lives. Again, I do really appreciate your time and help. Money issues just seem to creep up every time I'm finally looking into doing something because I have a good check coming in. lol

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by Slidin Gator »

Radtech,

You made a fine decision and you can't beat the deal. Make sure to check the throttle plate bushings, I'm certain LBW would tell you about any known issues, but worn bushings will drive you crazy on any carb.

Besides a rebuild kit for the model coming, go ahead and purchase a few extra base and air horn gaskets. I also suggest a range of metering rods either side of your initial selection (based on your research). To really be happy with the tune, you will probably end up taking the air horn off 5-6 times to swap metering rods, so make sure you have a hand full of those gaskets to work with. They only give you 1 of each in the $35 kits, the gaskets themselves are cheap in bulk so you don't have to wait a day for NAPA to order an other overpriced kit.

Image

Honestly I've never run an Edelbrock in my life. Seen them sitting on the shelf at Advance Auto and online at Summit. My first impression was that they looked too much like a Holley for my liking and left it at that, I don't want to learn a whole new system with it's own issues if I don't have to. So, given the carb bucket option of throwing another Qjet back together (using the same jet rods to keep the tune that works) vs. starting over with a new deal? I went with tried and true and ordered a box of gaskets.

So far I'm concluding that my original intuition was right, Edelbrock's are hard to give away, only one response and still waiting for a PM to sort out shipping. :stirpot:

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I still think I-10 is the Mason Dixon line.
2013 Mike Stossel Boats, 13' x 7' deck over, IO-540, 74" NGQ less winglets.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by radtech »

I will certainly do that, brother! Also ordered the book Deano suggested to rebuild and tune it. I meant to call you today, but I got sidetracked around noon and totally forgot. Hazards of getting old, I suppose. lol

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by radtech »

Thanks a lot, brother! I have ordered the book Deano suggested and intend to go through it completely and make sure everything looks good, replacing anything dryrotted or stopped up. I suppose I'll be flying by the seat of my pants setiing it up and getting it tuned, but I'm sure I'll get the hang of it.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 »

I'm gonna beat this dead horse one more time!

So today to verify I have not been in a beer coma, I ran the 500 Cadillac DD carburetor debate past the WIZARD.

I let him know of the "consensus" on the Holley 500 and he chuckled a little.


Then for the chance to pick the brain of an expert I asked for his spin on a host of carburetor options. Below are a few of the little details.


Well he said the 500cfm is in his expert opinion not the best carburetor for a good healthy 500 cubic inch engine. His experience has been the 2bbl 500cfm will feed a 472DD very well up to 3,000 rpm but the 500 cid engine can use a little more and the extra air and fuel helps get the most out of the bigger engine. His comment was you can run the 500 on the 2bbl but it will not make the power it is capable of because it can not fill the cylinders fast enough.

He was quick to make the point that NOT ALL EDELBROCK carburetors are the same. He had used what he referred to as 14 series Edelbrocks years ago and had nothing but grief with a long "bog" that no mater what he did to enhance the tune. Mr. Branch stated he spent many long hours on tech support with the Edelbrock engineers and was an informal advisor to help them develop the THUNDER AVS Series. If it is not the Thunder AVS it is not their best product and earlier criticism may well be justified.

As I had mentioned in an earlier post Mr Branch loves the Q-Jet and he advises they work very well on the 500 platform but ONLY FOR DIRECT DRIVE use. would be his advice. The Q-Jet is limited in it's ability to fill it's fuel bowl. It has only one fill point (needle / seat) and at full throttle it will run dry fairly quickly even if fed from a high pressure electric pump. When the Edelbrock Thunder was designed this was addressed and it uses two fill points (needle / seat) with upgrades to larger higher flow race components.

I found this next fact to be very interesting. He advised that the Q-Jets were NOT manufactured exclusively by Rochester, in fact Carter and another manufacturer produced them for GM over the years. He said the quality was good and as a general observation other than the name on the side of the casting some finish color was the only real telltale.


He said back years ago the Holley got a lot of attention because not everyone can customize and tune a 4bbl carburetor. It is a time consuming process and with old worn out and corroded cores it is pure grief for folks. The 500 2bbl was simple to install and tune. When someone who had a poorly tuned Q-Jet or other 4bbl with issues put on the new Holley, instantly their boat ran better for them hence the legend of the Holley 2bbl.

For what it's worth.... He has a 520 inch roller motor in a clients truck with a self tune fuel injection in testing.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by radtech »

Sounds pretty all inclusive, Swamp. I very much appreciate your investigation on my behalf. From what I read, it sounds like the quadrajet is currently the better of options for me. I do intend to one day scrape up the money to build a new hull, rigging, beef up the ol 500 some more, and add a gear box and different prop, and carb or injection system. But that may be another year or 2 in doing. So, for now, I'm stuck with the DD. I'm looking forward to seeing what improvements are made in the switch, then I intend to see if I can make the trip down to try out some different blades and see how much difference it makes. Thanks again for your input. It is greatly appreciated

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by fl cracker »

Don’t mess with the Q and just do a 74” JW. Wider blade, lighter , cheaper , better push through out the range. I’ve ran both !
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One for each of you "

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by radtech »

I will look into trying one of those as well. I'm barely awake at the moment, so I can't begin to think what a JW is, but will definitely see if I can try one out as well. Thanks, FL cracker

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 »

The JW may not be bad BUT your running a Cadillac !

The JW is narrow shank a copy of the Whirlwind.

The power of a healthy DD 500 on a narrow shank ?

Whirlwind as I recall in my DD days Restricted the warranty on Cadillac or at least made a warranty claim a more difficult matter. Don't take my word call Cadillac Performance for your self. I know they interviewed to help in the past when the matter came up.

I know for a fact as my azz stood in the Sensenich office having my NGQ blades repaired that Darrin was very clear that the force of the Cadillac upon a DD blade was not a gentle effect. They at that point offered an enhanced shank if it was going on a hot Caddy. One of the reasons they ask what it's going on.

It is a violent explosion with a unique impulse not like a 540 and when you have a claim you had better be able to prove your rotating assembly is balanced. Them old heavy Leroy props could absorb it but light carbon fiber is a game changer. I'll keep the Q or NGQ until you other guys give endurance reports 500 plus running hours out.

I'll wait for the trolls to inject their dope on the matter.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by Slidin Gator »

No Trolling here, Swamp is spot on! Read the fine print on the Whirlwind info, the warranty is void if used on any Caddy motor without a harmonic balancer or any AV engine that does not have the counterbalance weight system installed. If running an AV motor, unless its a plane pull off or you otherwise know the history, it likely does not have the CB weights. Without the balancer or weights, those (2,800/2)*6/60=140 piston pulses a second from my 6 cylinder engine go straight into the prop, via the shank, like a hammer. Multiply that by 1000 hours and it's 500 million pulses (ok less, it don't run wide open all the time). What do you prefer, narrow or wide shank?

I run the Q at present and have a shiny new NGQ (and new hub) sitting next to me now. The Q is 9+ years old, still pushing but time for a refurb. I decided to upgrade, send the Q in for a refurb and build a big rack in the truck headliner to hold the Q's for spare. I looked at the JW (and WW), understood what the deal was and decided on what I got for the reasons above.

Back to the earlier discussion, it takes a full read of this thread to understand the following. The JW and even the NGQ are poor recommendations for RadTech at this point because his motor presently does not make enough torque to properly spin the signature blades he is running at present. RadTech has too much prop for motor as it is. The first priority is more motor, which is where this thread took a left turn.

The old man Rad talked to did make a good observation that the Q would improve the boat, they are similar on motor load but the Q is more efficient. Every time I see a Sig, all I can think of is the Flintstones, them things would make a great Ostrich hunting weapon, BamBam must have come up with em! The JW and NGQ are wider blades that require flatter/more torque to spin properly.

Once we get Rad's motor tuned proper like, then we can have the prop discussion. Probably time to start a new thread on the motor tune.
I still think I-10 is the Mason Dixon line.
2013 Mike Stossel Boats, 13' x 7' deck over, IO-540, 74" NGQ less winglets.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by radtech »

Ok, well, that definitely helps to narrow things down a bit. Hopefully we can get the new carb in and installed, tuned properly, and move on to the next issue. I'd definitely like to take the opportunity to test multiple blades as discussed in the beginning of this thread as soon as I get the other things ironed out.

And yes, though I'll for sure revisit this thread and reread it multiple times, it is definitely getting a little long and off topic. I certainly welcome any more comments, but will start a new focused thread as soon as I get going on the engine. I'll also be dealing with another on the prop issue at a later date

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by Seven3 »

Slidin Gator wrote:No Trolling here, Swamp is spot on! Read the fine print on the Whirlwind info, the warranty is void if used on any Caddy motor without a harmonic balancer or any AV engine that does not have the counterbalance weight system installed. If running an AV motor, unless its a plane pull off or you otherwise know the history, it likely does not have the CB weights. Without the balancer or weights, those (2,800/2)*6/60=140 piston pulses a second from my 6 cylinder engine go straight into the prop, via the shank, like a hammer. Multiply that by 1000 hours and it's 500 million pulses (ok less, it don't run wide open all the time). What do you prefer, narrow or wide shank?

I run the Q at present and have a shiny new NGQ (and new hub) sitting next to me now. The Q is 9+ years old, still pushing but time for a refurb. I decided to upgrade, send the Q in for a refurb and build a big rack in the truck headliner to hold the Q's for spare. I looked at the JW (and WW), understood what the deal was and decided on what I got for the reasons above.

Back to the earlier discussion, it takes a full read of this thread to understand the following. The JW and even the NGQ are poor recommendations for RadTech at this point because his motor presently does not make enough torque to properly spin the signature blades he is running at present. RadTech has too much prop for motor as it is. The first priority is more motor, which is where this thread took a left turn.

The old man Rad talked to did make a good observation that the Q would improve the boat, they are similar on motor load but the Q is more efficient. Every time I see a Sig, all I can think of is the Flintstones, them things would make a great Ostrich hunting weapon, BamBam must have come up with em! The JW and NGQ are wider blades that require flatter/more torque to spin properly.

Once we get Rad's motor tuned proper like, then we can have the prop discussion. Probably time to start a new thread on the motor tune.
Not to veer off the OP's topic, but this post is interesting to me because I just purchased a boat that has an angle valve IO-540 with a dampener between the flywheel and propeller. I don't know much about it, but I have the sales and installation receipt from the AC mechanic who installed it on the boat and it was a $900 item. As far as I can see from reading online, these are typically used on experimental aircraft. I have never seen one on an airboat before. Aside from the high cost, your post makes me wonder why more people don't use them. Don't know how to attach a picture to my post, but I added a picture of it to the gallery:
Image

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by kwanjangnihm »

Seven3 I added your photo from the gallery. :thumbleft:

Pretty sure its either a Landoll Harmonic Damper or one made by Balancemaster. I was looking at a used one for my Lyc AV540 a while back.
He'll cut your throat, baby, stick you in the back, drive off in your Cadillac.
He's more trouble than you think, he'll kill your sugar, leave you in the drink.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by Gary S »

What is a JW pop?

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by radtech »

That's what I was wondering, Gary!

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Post by kwanjangnihm »

Sensenich 72JW Series Blade

The new 72JW series features our latest advanced swept blade shape technology. A combination of blade shape, airfoil technology, and laminate structure work together to increase propeller performance. The JW series blade also mounts using our latest V series hub models. These hubs offer many features like easier pitch setting and accuracy, ability to assemble the entire unit off of the boat and finally an anti-theft deterrent option.

The 72JW Series of blades brings the best low end performance to high output 6 cylinder engines. The 72JW is the ultimate hunt prop for larger airboats wanting to most thrust with the least amount of blades. Coupled with our new V Hub system, this propeller is a breeze to install and adjust pitch.

The 2 Blade 72" JW Series has quickly become a favorite of 260 – 300+ HP direct drive applications that are looking for the most available thrust.

Left Hand Rotation only
12 Inch Blade Width
2850 Maximum RPM
2 through 4 blade assemblies available
69"-72" Diameter
Removable as an entire unit
Optional anti-theft option
He'll cut your throat, baby, stick you in the back, drive off in your Cadillac.
He's more trouble than you think, he'll kill your sugar, leave you in the drink.

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