ISO Sensenich Q to try out

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Slidin Gator
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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby Slidin Gator » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:02 pm

No Trolling here, Swamp is spot on! Read the fine print on the Whirlwind info, the warranty is void if used on any Caddy motor without a harmonic balancer or any AV engine that does not have the counterbalance weight system installed. If running an AV motor, unless its a plane pull off or you otherwise know the history, it likely does not have the CB weights. Without the balancer or weights, those (2,800/2)*6/60=140 piston pulses a second from my 6 cylinder engine go straight into the prop, via the shank, like a hammer. Multiply that by 1000 hours and it's 500 million pulses (ok less, it don't run wide open all the time). What do you prefer, narrow or wide shank?

I run the Q at present and have a shiny new NGQ (and new hub) sitting next to me now. The Q is 9+ years old, still pushing but time for a refurb. I decided to upgrade, send the Q in for a refurb and build a big rack in the truck headliner to hold the Q's for spare. I looked at the JW (and WW), understood what the deal was and decided on what I got for the reasons above.

Back to the earlier discussion, it takes a full read of this thread to understand the following. The JW and even the NGQ are poor recommendations for RadTech at this point because his motor presently does not make enough torque to properly spin the signature blades he is running at present. RadTech has too much prop for motor as it is. The first priority is more motor, which is where this thread took a left turn.

The old man Rad talked to did make a good observation that the Q would improve the boat, they are similar on motor load but the Q is more efficient. Every time I see a Sig, all I can think of is the Flintstones, them things would make a great Ostrich hunting weapon, BamBam must have come up with em! The JW and NGQ are wider blades that require flatter/more torque to spin properly.

Once we get Rad's motor tuned proper like, then we can have the prop discussion. Probably time to start a new thread on the motor tune.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby radtech » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:46 pm

Ok, well, that definitely helps to narrow things down a bit. Hopefully we can get the new carb in and installed, tuned properly, and move on to the next issue. I'd definitely like to take the opportunity to test multiple blades as discussed in the beginning of this thread as soon as I get the other things ironed out.

And yes, though I'll for sure revisit this thread and reread it multiple times, it is definitely getting a little long and off topic. I certainly welcome any more comments, but will start a new focused thread as soon as I get going on the engine. I'll also be dealing with another on the prop issue at a later date

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby Seven3 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:45 am

Slidin Gator wrote:No Trolling here, Swamp is spot on! Read the fine print on the Whirlwind info, the warranty is void if used on any Caddy motor without a harmonic balancer or any AV engine that does not have the counterbalance weight system installed. If running an AV motor, unless its a plane pull off or you otherwise know the history, it likely does not have the CB weights. Without the balancer or weights, those (2,800/2)*6/60=140 piston pulses a second from my 6 cylinder engine go straight into the prop, via the shank, like a hammer. Multiply that by 1000 hours and it's 500 million pulses (ok less, it don't run wide open all the time). What do you prefer, narrow or wide shank?

I run the Q at present and have a shiny new NGQ (and new hub) sitting next to me now. The Q is 9+ years old, still pushing but time for a refurb. I decided to upgrade, send the Q in for a refurb and build a big rack in the truck headliner to hold the Q's for spare. I looked at the JW (and WW), understood what the deal was and decided on what I got for the reasons above.

Back to the earlier discussion, it takes a full read of this thread to understand the following. The JW and even the NGQ are poor recommendations for RadTech at this point because his motor presently does not make enough torque to properly spin the signature blades he is running at present. RadTech has too much prop for motor as it is. The first priority is more motor, which is where this thread took a left turn.

The old man Rad talked to did make a good observation that the Q would improve the boat, they are similar on motor load but the Q is more efficient. Every time I see a Sig, all I can think of is the Flintstones, them things would make a great Ostrich hunting weapon, BamBam must have come up with em! The JW and NGQ are wider blades that require flatter/more torque to spin properly.

Once we get Rad's motor tuned proper like, then we can have the prop discussion. Probably time to start a new thread on the motor tune.


Not to veer off the OP's topic, but this post is interesting to me because I just purchased a boat that has an angle valve IO-540 with a dampener between the flywheel and propeller. I don't know much about it, but I have the sales and installation receipt from the AC mechanic who installed it on the boat and it was a $900 item. As far as I can see from reading online, these are typically used on experimental aircraft. I have never seen one on an airboat before. Aside from the high cost, your post makes me wonder why more people don't use them. Don't know how to attach a picture to my post, but I added a picture of it to the gallery:
Image

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby kwanjangnihm » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:59 am

Seven3 I added your photo from the gallery. :thumbleft:

Pretty sure its either a Landoll Harmonic Damper or one made by Balancemaster. I was looking at a used one for my Lyc AV540 a while back.
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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby Gary S » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:45 am

What is a JW pop?

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby radtech » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:51 am

That's what I was wondering, Gary!

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby kwanjangnihm » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:07 am

Sensenich 72JW Series Blade

The new 72JW series features our latest advanced swept blade shape technology. A combination of blade shape, airfoil technology, and laminate structure work together to increase propeller performance. The JW series blade also mounts using our latest V series hub models. These hubs offer many features like easier pitch setting and accuracy, ability to assemble the entire unit off of the boat and finally an anti-theft deterrent option.

The 72JW Series of blades brings the best low end performance to high output 6 cylinder engines. The 72JW is the ultimate hunt prop for larger airboats wanting to most thrust with the least amount of blades. Coupled with our new V Hub system, this propeller is a breeze to install and adjust pitch.

The 2 Blade 72" JW Series has quickly become a favorite of 260 – 300+ HP direct drive applications that are looking for the most available thrust.

Left Hand Rotation only
12 Inch Blade Width
2850 Maximum RPM
2 through 4 blade assemblies available
69"-72" Diameter
Removable as an entire unit
Optional anti-theft option
" I don't care who you are back in the world, you give away our position one more time, I'll bleed ya, real quiet. Leave ya here. Got that? "

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby Slidin Gator » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:33 am

Slidin Gator wrote:No Trolling here, Swamp is spot on! Read the fine print on the Whirlwind info, the warranty is void if used on any Caddy motor without a harmonic balancer or any AV engine that does not have the counterbalance weight system installed.

I guess my memory is slightly off (no surprise there!), here are the warnings I refer to from the Whirlwind Installation manual.

Image
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby Seven3 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:20 pm

kwanjangnihm wrote:Seven3 I added your photo from the gallery. :thumbleft:

Pretty sure its either a Landoll Harmonic Damper or one made by Balancemaster. I was looking at a used one for my Lyc AV540 a while back.

Thanks for putting the pic in there. It looks exactly like the Landoll from what I can see online...that's gotta be it, so thanks for that info too.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby kwanjangnihm » Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:53 pm

few more pics of damper for reference :salute:

Image
Image
Image
" I don't care who you are back in the world, you give away our position one more time, I'll bleed ya, real quiet. Leave ya here. Got that? "

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby Slidin Gator » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:17 pm

I guess my memory works better than I thought. I found the statement about CB weights on Aviation engines in the WhirlWind Warranty statement. I'm not sure why they didn't include the weight issue in the warnings elsewhere in the document.

Image

For completeness, the Sensenich warranty terms are actually more restrictive. The highlighted term would imply harmonic balancers on all automotive engines and internal CB weights on AV engines.

Image

At the end of the day, all this really means is that most airboat applications are excluded from the warranty terms. For instance, during a read of at least one Lycoming operators manual I found a caution against aggressive throttle adjustments as quick acceleration/decceleration could damage the internal CB weight system. Aggressive throttle adjustments are exactly what we want out of an airboat engine, hence the reason they are removed by most (all?) AB aviation engine builders. Imagine what the engine would look like if one of those internal counterbalance weights were to come loose inside the motor!

The external harmonic balancer knocks the edge of the piston impulses which improves prop life and makes for a smoother idle, either way the crank sees it. They do negatively impact throttle response to some degree since they are a spinning mass. How much I don't know.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby radtech » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:58 pm

Thanks for the info, kwanjangnihm. I certainly appears to me that the JW is only made for gear box in CM, as it is only sold LHR. Might be something to look into when I van change over to reduction. Who knows. I'd be willing to try it out when I get to that point.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby Slidin Gator » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:19 pm

Rad,
You are running a left hand rotation prop now, if not then we may have a big clue into the slow planing issue!

Rotation direction for airboat props is specified looking at the prop from behind the boat, which is exactly the opposite of how the rotation direction is normally specified for an automotive engine (looking at the motor from the front of the car) and an aviation engine (pilots view looking forward at prop, not counting pusher applications). I guess I can understand the logic, reference the prop rotation relative to how the boat moves forward. But it is damn confusing and the prop companies could sure help by prominently explaining as much on their websites. :violent1:

So direct drive Automotive and Aviation application use Left Hand (CCW) rotation props. Belt and aviation planetary reduction drive props turn the same direction as the motor, so they also use Left Hand rotation props. The prop rotates opposite of the engine with automotive offset gear drive boxes, so these are the applications that run Right Hand rotation props.

That should be clear as mud I'm sure, I have to stop and think about it every time. :scratch:

kwanjangnihm wrote:The 72JW Series of blades brings the best low end performance to high output 6 cylinder engines. The 72JW is the ultimate hunt prop for larger airboats wanting to most thrust with the least amount of blades. Coupled with our new V Hub system, this propeller is a breeze to install and adjust pitch.

The 2 Blade 72" JW Series has quickly become a favorite of 260 – 300+ HP direct drive applications that are looking for the most available thrust.

Left Hand Rotation only
12 Inch Blade Width
2850 Maximum RPM
2 through 4 blade assemblies available
69"-72" Diameter
Removable as an entire unit
Optional anti-theft option


Note specifically that the "W" in JW stands for wide blade. The JW is a 12" wide blade (as is the NGQ), while the Signature and Q props are 10-1/2" wide blades, which is why I said the NGQ and JW both need more torque vs. the Sig & Q. All of these could be options in the future, but first the motor has to make torque between 1000-2000 RPM to jump your boat on a plane without having to wait for the prop to spin up to where the motor works (at present). As it is the prop is under pitched to get on a plane, but loosing out on the top end.

If the goal was no change to the motor, just make it work, the correct options would be:
- Thinner (and maybe more) blades to improve snap but still work at the top end
- Or a smaller diameter to let you spin the motor into the 3000 RPM power band.

But either of those are just band aids.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby Seven3 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:39 pm

kwanjangnihm wrote:few more pics of damper for reference :salute:

Image
Image
Image

Yep, that's definitely it. Thanks again, it's always nice to know exactly what you have. One things for sure, no expense was spared on this boat I bought. To the OP, my last several airboats have all been 540's with 5 blade Razor X's. I loved those props, and still do. But my new boat has a 72" Q, and even just giving it throttle on the trailer, the low-end thrust is noticeably increased over the 5 blades im usd to. Anything over 1500 RPM and she wants to move forward on the trailer if it isn't strapped down. Haven't run any dry yet.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby radtech » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:32 pm

Thanks for straightening me out on that. I've been airboating for 13 years and I still can't seem to remember that little tidbit. I can stand behind the boat and look at the prop, knowing which direction it turns and still fail at the RHR, LHR deal. Hopefully I can keep it straight now. Lol

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby Slidin Gator » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:49 pm

Seven3 wrote:To the OP, my last several airboats have all been 540's with 5 blade Razor X's. I loved those props, and still do. But my new boat has a 72" Q, and even just giving it throttle on the trailer, the low-end thrust is noticeably increased over the 5 blades im usd to. Anything over 1500 RPM and she wants to move forward on the trailer if it isn't strapped down. Haven't run any dry yet.


Seven3,
Your going to love the difference, those Razor etc. props are are just like dating a movie starlet, a whole sHip load of fun at times, but usually they just get you into trouble. As everyone gets older, they realize what they really need is someone or something to plow the field.

All your buddies still running them Razors will probably out run you now. It's cool, let em blow by, they are gonna have a heck of a time finding where you're gonna be running. How did you show up at Sausage Island first? :alien: :alien: :alien:
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby Striker543 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:33 am

fl cracker wrote:Don’t mess with the Q and just do a 74” JW. Wider blade, lighter , cheaper , better push through out the range. I’ve ran both !


We went from a 3 blade H to a 2 blade 74” JW on our old 500 caddy and it did not like the JW at all - it was noticeably less thrust than the H. We switch to a 72” JM and that was closer to what the old H did. Our engine may have been too old and tired for the JW.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby kwanjangnihm » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:49 am

Striker543 wrote: our 500 caddy may have been too old and tired for the JW

yea that 1970 technology is past its prime for sure!! :stirpot: :slap:

oh snap my Lyc 540 is 10 years older than that! :lol:
" I don't care who you are back in the world, you give away our position one more time, I'll bleed ya, real quiet. Leave ya here. Got that? "

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby radtech » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:13 pm

Well, thanks to Slidingator, I got a chance to try out a Q. It definitely seems to have more power in the low end to break free and run ground. I may see one permanently on my boat in the near future. Thanks again, brother! I had a great time riding with ya!!

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby Deano » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:29 am

Am curious, and am sure it's here someplace, but exactly what Q (and size) was it that you were now running?
An older, original Q or the later ngQ? Was the length 72" or did you use a longer hub so it was a 74"?

I value your assessment, but don't know what exactly what you are comparing (either before OR after).
I'm a note taking fool, but need solid info to insure it is note worthy. Thanks in advance.
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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby diamondback0320 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:52 pm

I also thought ww signature blade was 11.5 or 12" not 10.5 ..I run a Cypress blade & its 10" wide..my buddy runs a signature & I know it's wider than mine.. maybe it's 11"

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby Slidin Gator » Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:38 pm

The WW website shows a picture of the sig with a tape measure at a bit wider than 10”. The prop Radtech tested is the old style Q series at 10-1/2” wide, not the 12” NGQ. Both props were run on the same long hub at 74” diameter.

My memory is a bit fuzzy on this point, but I think we had the Q pitched around 1-1/2. It turned at 2800 on Rads mechanical tach, I measured it at 2,970 with my digital timing light. It was definitely loud!

Radtech ran the Q for several weeks and said the boat ran better than it ever had. But he also had a new intake and a 4bbl Qjet (500 cfm) vs his previous 2 bbl.

We switched it back to the Sig and he ran it for 2 days to compare. The Sig was set right on the only pitch mark formed on the blade. Radtech will have to confirm what he saw for RPMS on that prop, but I believe it was similar to the Q.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby radtech » Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:50 pm

Yes, both props in same hub. 74" . Both set to 2900 on my tach. They were fairly similar on water, but the sensenich q was definitely better breaking free and running on dry ground

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby kwanjangnihm » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:23 pm

I had similar results testing the 3 blade Q, vs my 3 blade Sig on my AV540. (both 72")

The Q would break free on ground at 2000-2100 while the Sig broke at 2300 rpms. Made it feel like I didn't have to push the motor as hard with the Q's. :salute:

In one of the older threads, it was stated a 2 blade 74" Q will walk the dog on a 72" 3 blade Q all day long. :thumbleft:
" I don't care who you are back in the world, you give away our position one more time, I'll bleed ya, real quiet. Leave ya here. Got that? "

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Re: ISO Sensenich Q to try out

Postby radtech » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:12 pm

I definitely liked it. May very well order a set of Q blades for my hull and keep the sig in case of blown prop


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