Boat builder ripoffs.

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by bonecollector »

I don't ask for all the money up front I get 50% down and they make payments on the other half and I do that because I have built boats for guys that don't send money and I get stuck with the boat when they buy a used one from a buddy. Tony you know me and we have some good mutual friends and I bet you have never heard anything bad about me from any of them.
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newoldglory
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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by newoldglory »

zrackers wrote:Why is this not an allowed thread? There are some individuals out there that are ripping folks off. It just happened to me. Why would we not want this info spread to help others avoid the same misfortune and drive these scumbags out of so called business.
I, of all, agree with "zrackers". This is a public forum. SA entered into the public eye knowing the basic facts. Rick is not stupid by no means. He is a successfull man that works too many hours only to be cut down by folks like me and you. However, if we can say some thing GOOD about some one, why can't we say some thing BAD about some one as long as it is done finessefully? It is true that the bad guys win. They are the loudest and there fore feared. If we say something bad, we can be sued. Why is it that if we say something good about some one, we are not sued? "whitebear", I get you're drift. It's late and I have a stinking parakeet that showed up here to put to bed!?!!
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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by newoldglory »

kwanjangnihm wrote:Be constructive and be courteous!

Example Post:

Hey I am thinking about having a hull built by Kwan's Extreme AC Performance. Can someone who has had a hull built by Kwan send me a PM (private message) on their purchase experience. Thanks a bunch!

Whitebear is this acceptable?

:thumbleft:
At one time I was interested in having Don Davis build me a boat. Has any one had a problem with this "boat builder?
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newoldglory
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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by newoldglory »

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:Like Tony said on another thread a builder who wants 100% payment up front ought to be avoided.
No one should pay any more than 50% for a deposit in my opinion.

To order a boat, make full payment and be waiting a year or more is not a reasonable situation. If someone claims to make 12 boats a year then a new boat would be completed every month. Do your home work before you hand anyone your hard earned dollar.

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I don't see don davis on this list!?!
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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by newoldglory »

Tony480 wrote:I don't feel sorry 1 bit for these people that get screwed over. If you are that damn stupid not to do some research before handing over your money or paying for a boat 100% up front then you got what's coming to you. Your a dumb ass and deserve it! Quit being a cheap ass and looking for the cheapest shade tree guy around and spend your money with a reputable builder who will stand behind their work and doesn't ask for all the money upfront. I'm a dealer for custom Airboat trailers out of Brooksville and not once have I ever took a deposit on a trailer. If they can't afford to build it without getting all the money then go elsewhere.
480, I am offended by you're "dumb ass remark". An honest man does not deserve to be put down by uneducated folks. it would appear that you learned the hard way. Why would you put down innocent people? Were you born innocent? Were you born with cloths on, or were you shamed by you're ignorance and covered up to hide you're shame? What else do you do?
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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by blackpowderscout »

No, he's right. If you aren't driving away with a boat in your rearview, you shouldn't be paying 100%. If the shoe fits, wear it but don't be offended. It is what it is.
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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 »

I feel sorry for anyone who saved to get a dream boat, only to hand over their money and get either scammed or an abortion of a build.

These tips can help but don't guarantee satisfaction.

1) Do your research and speak to references
2) Get it in writing, all major builders do a contract
3) Consider adding a performance clause and penalty if specifics not met
4) Define warranty in writing
5) Pay by check or credit card for record of transaction

Communication, documentation and research are a key to a good transaction with an honest builder.

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by newoldglory »

blackpowderscout wrote:No, he's right. If you aren't driving away with a boat in your rearview, you shouldn't be paying 100%. If the shoe fits, wear it but don't be offended. It is what it is.
I'm not saying 100%. But why would a builder invest a large amount of money in an order and possibly get stuck with it? A builder is not a funding agency. Even DDDB has a right to ask for money up front. :roll:
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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by Tony480 »

If your offended than sorry about your luck...the shoe must fit then! Call any big name builder and see if they ask for 100% payment before it's finished. I know Hamant,Diamondback, GTO and Alumitech don't. They ask for it in draws as progress is made..and final payment os do on delivery. On a 40k dollar boat if you put 50% down that's 20k...if someone did walk away and not come get it then they would end up making more in the end because they could sell it to someone else. You people need to use your head for something besides a hat rack. And no I've never been ripped off like that. I work hard for money and don't just give it away. I guess common sense isn't ao common.

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by Krahammer »

Guys: I started this thread because I have read too many complaints about dishonest "builders" out there who take people's hard earned money and don't produce. It's a problem that is not limited to a single geographic area, and involves several "builders." There has been a good bit of give and take on the subject, which is good.

While I disagree that the the rules and terms of service for SA prohibit posting of truthful comments about a bad "builder," this is a private site, and the owners can pretty well do as they please. All that being said, SWAMPHUNTER45 has made some good suggestions, as have others.

My comments are below:


[quote="SWAMPHUNTER45"]I feel sorry for anyone who saved to get a dream boat, only to hand over their money and get either scammed or an abortion of a build.

These tips can help but don't guarantee satisfaction.

1) Do your research and speak to references

Don't just talk to "references" provided by the builder. "references" are often provided by shills, and should not be trusted. Ask for people to send you a PM regarding a builder. People are more likely to be honest. Look at boats built by the builder and ask the owner of those boats for a ride. most guys wiuh a good boat from a good builder are glad to show/ride their boat.


2) Get it in writing, all major builders do a contract.
A boat is a big investment. Always put the whole deal in a contract. A verbal side deal, not written on the contract, is NOT ENFORCEABLE. Get change orders in writing.


3) Consider adding a performance clause and penalty if specifics not met.
While a performance clause is ok, a penalty clause is unenforceable in Florida, and may void the entire contract, if a court cannot excise the clause from the contract.

4) Define warranty in writing See item 2

5) Pay by check or credit card for record of transaction
Never pay cash for any large purchase or any part of the purchase



Others have suggested that you not pay for a boat in full up front. I agree, A "builder" who wants 50% or more does not have the financial stability to build your boat. Any good/honest builder will ask for a small deposit (I would not exceed 25%) and draws after, based on stage of completion. The last draw should be large enough to encourage timely completion. A good rule of thumb is, that as close as you can figure it, payments before final completion keep up with the builder's actual costs, and the final draw is the profit on the job. Builder performs, he makes the profit to which he is entitled. You fall down, he sells the boat to someone else and is not out of pocket, and still makes the profit.

Just my 5 cents worth.

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 »

Krauthammer the SOF puts a failure to perform penalty into their contracts, please educate me on how its not enforceable?

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by Krahammer »

A penalty clause (as in a contract) that calls for a penalty to be paid or suffered by a party under specified terms (as in the event of a breach) and that is usually unenforceable. A penalty clause differs from a liquidated damages clause by not being tied to an estimate of possible actual damages. Penalty clauses are extra damages designed to keep parties from breaking the contract. Because liquidated damages clauses are enforceable and penalty clauses are not, it is important to be clear about what the parties are agreeing to. Courts in Florida strike penalty clauses routinely.

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by Krahammer »

See RKR Motors, Inc. v. Associated Unif. Rental & Linen Supply, Inc., 995 So. 2d 588, 595 (Fla. 3d DCA 2008)(where liquidated damages grossly disproportionate to actual damages, equity requires computation of lost profits); cf. Berndt v. Bieberstein, 465 So. 2d 1264, 1265 (Fla. 2d DCA1985)(noting equity may act to relieve a forfeiture where it would be unconscionable to allow plaintiff to retain the sum in question.

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Deano
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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by Deano »

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:Krauthammer the SOF puts a failure to perform penalty into their contracts . . .
Based on what I've seen first hand, I don't think Swamphunter is as far off base as you do.

Evidently the State Court system has never told the DOT that either. They simply don't award contracts that do not contain performance penalties, at least not where road contracting in concerned. Beyond that, they routinely withhold 10% of the entire contract amount as Retainage until after project completion, they are able to attain a nice fuzzy feeling with how everything looks, and the check writer gets back from wherever he went on vacation the day after the Invoice was mailed. :roll:

And yea, those performance penalties are quite enforceable. They will deduct it from any applicable draw along the way. Should need be, they will very readily deduct it from whatever Retainage would have been otherwise payable after the fact.

You said that "Penalty clauses are extra damages designed to keep parties from breaking the contract." While that may be, I always understood the fundamental premise was to ensure the parties executed the contract in what was a pre-agreed upon 'timely fashion' and also defined a monetary penalty(s) for failing to do so. :dontknow:
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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by Krahammer »

I have never said or implied that Swamphunter is off base. He asked a question. I answered. Penalty clauses are defeated all the time. Liquidated damages clauses, on the other hand, are upheld.

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by Krahammer »

I have never said or implied that Swamphunter is off base. He asked a question. I answered. Penalty clauses are defeated all the time. Liquidated damages clauses, on the other hand, are upheld.

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by Deano »

I reckon that "Being The State . . . has its Privileges"

No surprise they could, would and do, get away with things that us mere mortals would not. :x
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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by Krahammer »

You are right. grandpa always said, "It's good to be the king."

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by Waterthunder »

The worse thing about this is how many crooks are out there. In over 20 years I have only had two customers that it got ugly. One wrote me a bad check which later I found out he wrote a bunch of people bad checks and the other I just realized no matter what I could never make them happy Lord knows I tried. I'm very proud of this success rate.

But now so many people have been ripped off by boat builders and engine builders so many people walk in our shop very upset and have zero trust for anyone. It's very difficult and miserable to deal with this when your honest. The good boat builders and engine builders are punished for what all the other scum bags do. I know of 3 boat builders recently that have taken deposits and never built a boat they are easy to TELL (BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES WHO DO THE MOST TRASH TALK TO GET BUSINESS). Not to mention a few that just build a crappy boat with substandard quality and performance. I always tell people talk to someone who actually owns what your thinking about buying and ask them. NEVER LISTEN TO A STORY ABOUT A NEIGHBORS BEST FRIENDS BROTHER! Spend the time do the research!
THE PROOF IS IN THE PROP!

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by terrible ted »

Waterthunder wrote:The worse thing about this is how many crooks are out there. In over 20 years I have only had two customers that it got ugly. One wrote me a bad check which later I found out he wrote a bunch of people bad checks and the other I just realized no matter what I could never make them happy Lord knows I tried. I'm very proud of this success rate.

But now so many people have been ripped off by boat builders and engine builders so many people walk in our shop very upset and have zero trust for anyone. It's very difficult and miserable to deal with this when your honest. The good boat builders and engine builders are punished for what all the other scum bags do. I know of 3 boat builders recently that have taken deposits and never built a boat they are easy to TELL (BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES WHO DO THE MOST TRASH TALK TO GET BUSINESS). Not to mention a few that just build a crappy boat with substandard quality and performance. I always tell people talk to someone who actually owns what your thinking about buying and ask them. NEVER LISTEN TO A STORY ABOUT A NEIGHBORS BEST FRIENDS BROTHER! Spend the time do the research!
Thats how it is for every auto shop.

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by Krahammer »

The thievery goes both ways - Dishonest builders and dishonest "buyers." The bad check issue is another story...In Florida, it is really hard to get Law Enforcement or a Prosecutor to give a darn. The bad check statute contains a civil remedy for you builders that take a bad check. The reason that the check bounced does not matter, only that it was dishonored. If you get a bad check, send a demand for payment in a certified letter to the guy who stroked. keep a copy of the letter, and proof of mailing the certified letter. A $1,000 bad check can become a judgment for $4,000, plus court costs, reasonable attorney fees, and any bank fees.


Sample:

You are hereby notified that a check numbered ## in the face amount of $ issued by you on , drawn upon , and payable to , has been dishonored.

Pursuant to Florida law, you have 30 days from receipt of this notice to tender payment in cash of the full amount of the check plus a service charge of $25, if the face value does not exceed $50, $30, if the face value exceeds $50 but does not exceed $300, $40, if the face value exceeds $300, or 5 percent of the face amount of the check, whichever is greater, the total amount due being $ and cents.

Unless this amount is paid in full within the 30-day period, the holder of the check or instrument may file a civil action against you for three times the amount of the check, but in no case less than $50, in addition to the payment of the check plus any court costs, reasonable attorney fees, and any bank fees incurred by the payee in taking the action.

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by Waterthunder »

The bad check wasn't even the most dishonest part about it. A few months later a friend of his told me what really happened (HE WAS PRESENT) I was lied to, deceived and ripped off, That was my punishment for trying to help someone.
THE PROOF IS IN THE PROP!

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by Krahammer »

No good deed goes unpunished, you know.

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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by getchasumairboats »

Waterthunder wrote:The bad check wasn't even the most dishonest part about it. A few months later a friend of his told me what really happened (HE WAS PRESENT) I was lied to, deceived and ripped off, That was my punishment for trying to help someone.



I believe the story goes oh no I didn't ever sink the boat !!! He is a a snake in the grass. He has just about lost everything because if his actions.
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Re: Boat builder ripoffs.

Post by wd »

who made a 12 ft airboat hull with 5 drain holes

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