180 lycoming help

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JD
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180 lycoming help

Post by JD » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:07 pm

I have had a 180 lycoming on a 13' boat for some time now. I recently went to a 66" whirlwind from a 60" wood prop and it still won't run dry. It's close but it won't. It was turning 3k with the wood prop and turning 2750 now. Is there things to check that may help. I recently put new plugs gapped at ..018. The old gap was about .035. I've been viewing this forum a long time....Thanks, JD :?

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Whitebear
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Post by Whitebear » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:20 pm

Thats a pretty big boat for a 4 cylinder, but I know there are folks running bigger still.

That 180 should scream over dry ground. Assuming the engine is right and the prop it looks like is topping out at a good RPM , I would look seriously at the hull shape and condition of the underside.

You can shape the hull with jacks and replace any fragmented or worne out plastic coatings.

How much weight are you carrying? Is it a overly heavy rig? How much Gas? Is the rigging made from rebar or conduit? How much tilt if any in the engine and in which direction? Need a bit more info to help very much.

Hope this can be worked out for ya here.

Scotty
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Post by JD » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:37 pm

Whitebear, the bottom is in excellent shape and I installed new UHMW on it when I went with the new prop. I also added 2' to the hull at that time. It was 10' 9" and now is 12' 9". The original owner had it built for hunting the swamp in the mid 80's and he was old and didn't use it that much. It then sat for five years and after his death I bought it from his wife. The cage is mainly conduit except for the two main hoops around the prop which is pipe. It has a twenty gallon tank. The tilt of the motor looks to be level and it rides good in open water, no porpoising or front end digging in. It plans off with four people in it with no problem, but it did that with the wood prop. The sides and front deck are 1/8" and the bottom is 3/16".
The sides are about 24" but other than that it is a plane Jane nicely painted hull and rigging. I'm wondering if I should try to check cam wear, timing, or SOMETHING. It doesn't sound like there is any miss but I don't think it has much snap to the rev up......Stumped.........

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Whitebear
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Post by Whitebear » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:45 pm

On my boats I put about a 2 degree down tilt at the rear of the motor. Tahts about 1/4 bubble on a level.

2750 RPM should be plenty to make that thing move. If its not snappy ya might try easing some pitch out just a tad and see what happens.

Just sounds like the engine is fine to me.

Scotty
Last edited by Whitebear on Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The Constitution is not so the government can restrain the people, it is so the people can restrain the government." Patrick Henry
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Post by JD » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:56 pm

Whitebear, One other thing, the hull has a five foot bottom(built for the swamp thing again) and flares out a bit and by the time you get up to the cage it only has room for a 66" prop. A 68" left only a half inch clearance after some hammer work so I sent it back and got the 66" for a little safety. I use the boat mainly for going up river where many people don't go because of the stumps and shallows, but when I go to the swamp to hunt I would like to know I could make it over some of the dry spots we encounter. The one good thing about this boat is that we burnt $17 dollars of gas last time we went snipe hunting in the swamp. The same trip in my partners boat( a 502 on a 16' workboat) was $60 even. Talk about expensive little birds. Anyway thanks for any tips or ideas ya'll may come up with.

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Whitebear
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Post by Whitebear » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:01 pm

I was thinking a 7' wide boat. You may be suffering from a lack of bottom surface. Lets see what some other folks think.

Scotty
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180

Post by calbrigsr » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:49 pm

A warp drive would definately give you more snap on the hill! :)
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Post by Rich Andrews » Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:07 pm

run that new botton on the road for a few feet get some scratches on it. Two FLAT surfaces together(completely flat) will not slide apart.
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Post by JD » Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:44 pm

Rich, I don't think thats the problem, I've been running it a year or so and it has plenty of scratches. Calbrigsr, I hate to spend another grand or more on this thing without trying something.

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Post by cowboy » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:27 pm

Howd it do before you lengthend the hull?
Did it run dry when it was 12'6"?

Perhaps backing out a little pitch will give you that little bit more you need. I would'nt turn it higher that 3 grand though.

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Post by JD » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:37 pm

Cowboy, It had a 60" wood prop on it turning 3K when it was shorter. I lenghthened it, painted it, added the poly and prop all at once. It ran good with the wood, but not dry. It seems to run good now but not dry. How high can you turn these things. Is 3K allright? I know it turned it for a long time, but the owner probably didn't turn it that high much. He just putt-putted around the swamp mostly.

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Post by JD » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:52 pm

Also, it got to where the starting mag(the one hooked to the key) wouldn't start the engine, I'd have to turn on the other mag to run and it wouldn't run on the key mag till it was warmed up. I changed plugs and that corrected itself. Are you supposed to crank on both mags or just one? I've heard both ways.

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Post by cowboy » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:58 pm

I don't think turning it up there will hurt it. If it's a solid engine, and you don't hold it there all day.
The lycoming book I have here says anywhere from 2700 to 3200 for the helecopter engines. I'd be happy at 2900, but some may go higher than that, some may be comfortable with less.

I ain't tried it, but some folks around here put black magic tire shine on there hull bottom, and claim it stays put for a good days ride, and greatly improves thier ease of running the dry.

It could be that the boat is just too big to burn up the hill with that engine.
If it's just small dry patches your gonna cross, the forward momentum you'll have in the water may get you across them. Even if it won't get up and go from a stop on the dry.

It might not run dry for great distances. 66" is not a gigantic prop for that motor, and like Whitebear said, your getting decent revs.

70 OR 72" Wood props are not uncommon on an engine like that, so actually a 66" could be a little small. This would only effect the pitch setting needing to be higher.

I wonder if your prop blades could be set at too high of an attack angle, and then become less effective, and just slapping air instead of pushing well.

I'm not an expert on it, but I think many adjustable props have a range of adjustment, and if you go beyond that last pitch mark by a wide margin, the performance of the blades drops off dramatically.

Perhaps dropping the pitch will give you a little more revs, and help the prop work more in it's blades intended angle of attack.

I'd put it on the ground, and start pitching the baldes back down. It may start pushing better, but allow the top end revs to be too high.
Then you'll know for sure that you need a different prop.

Again, I'm not the guru here, just trying to help.

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Post by JD » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:24 pm

Cowboy, All help is appreciated. The scale on the SS Whirlwind goes from about 15 to 25 degrees and I'm at about 19. I may try going to 17 or 18 and get the engine around 2900 and see what happens. I was just hoping I don't have some kind of cam wear or something serious wrong. And I still want to get the timing checked if I can find someone that can do that.

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Post by cowboy » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:31 pm

Guess your in the range then.
If it's a parralell valve engine, then it should be at 20 deg BTDC.

Your can find #1 cyl tdc, put a degree wheel on it, fashion a pointer, and back the crank up 20 degrees. Then look in the mags top inspection hole, and you should be able to see the painted tooth on the distributor gear.

You'll know your close if you see it centered.

The sky ranch website has a ton of good info on this kinda stuff also.

Once you have them re-timed, you should sync the points together with a buzz box, or lights.

You can search the forum here for other posts on that subject. There are some good ones.

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Post by JD » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:34 pm

Sky Ranch here I come...Thanks Cowboy...When I get time I'll look into it and let you know if it helped. Again thanks allot.....JD

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Post by D-BREWSTER » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:15 pm

HEY COWBOY THE OLD OILER SET-UP IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL ON THE PALM BEACH HULL'S , OF COURSE THERE NOT RUNN'IN OIL OR FUEL IN THEM ANYMORE, THEY USE THE BLACKMAGIC CARWASH OR REGULAR SOAP AND WATER OR HELL EVEN PLAIN OLE WATER WILL WORK..IVE HAD THEM ON ALL MY HULLS AND IF YOU HAVE STOSSEL OR LIL GEORGE BUILD YOUR HULL THEY WILL USALLY INSTALL ONE UNLESS YOU ASK OTHER WISE BUT THEY HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT ...ITS A EASY SET-UP FOR ANY BOAT, ALL YOU DO IS GET SOME BRAKELINE CUT IT TO THE LENGTH OF THE FRONT OF YOUR HULL , CAP THE 2 ENDS (BRAZE-EM) DRILL A HOLE IN THE CENTER OF THE BRAKELINE (ONLY THREW ONE END NOT COMPLETLY THREW THE CENTER) TAKE ABOUT A 3 INCH PIECE OF BRAKLINE FIT IT IN THE CENTER HOLE YOU JUST MADE AND (BRAZE THAT ALSO) THIS WILL MAKE A TEE.. DRILL A HOLE SLIGHTLY BIGGER THEN THE BRAKELINE IN THE CENTER OF YOUR HULL RIGHT ABOVE WHERE YOUR POLYMER STOPS, ( THE BRAKELINE SHOULD SIT ON TOP THE LIP OF YOUR POLYMER (USE A RUBBER GROMET FOR A GOOD SEAL)AND THE 3 INCH STUB TEE YOU BRAZED-ON SHOULD SLIDE TIGHTLY THREW THE CENTER HOLE YOU JUST MADE IN YOUR HULL)NOW THAT YOU HAVE FIT IT TO YOUR HULL TAKE THE BRAKLINE BACK OFF AND PUT IT ON THE TABLE, YOU NEED TO DRILL THE HOLE'S FOR THE LIQUID TO COME OUT OF , DRILL SMALL HOLES ABOUT EVERY 4 INCH'S IN THE CENTER OF THE BRAKLINE FACING AWAY FROM THE HULL , RE-INSTALL THE LINE, NOW MOST ALL PALMBEACH HULLS ALREADY HAVE THE STAINLESS 2-INCH CAP GOING ACCROSS THE FRONT OF THERE HULL TO PROTECT THE LIP OF THERE POLMER FROM CATCHING ON ANYTHING, IF YOU DONT HAVE ONE THERE EASY TO MAKE OR MOST AIRBOAT BUILDERS CAN SELL YOU ONE,, THIS WILL COVER YOUR OILER LINE PERFECTLY AND SECURE IT FROM THE FRONT SIDE..(YOU HAVE PROBLY SEEN A 100 BOATS THAT HAD THEM BUT DIDNT KNOW IT BECAUSE THIS CAP HIDES IT AND MAKES FOR A NICE CLEAN LOOK.)NOW THAT THATS DONE YOUR GONNA NEED A NICE PORTABLE GAS CAN, THE 5 GALLON BOAT CAN'S WORK GREAT , THEY HAVE THE FUEL LINE FITTING ALREADY ON THE CAN.. YOU NEED A ELECTRIC AUTOMOTIVE FUEL PUMP WHICH YOUR GONNA WANT TO MOUNT ON ONE OF THE UP-RIGHT SUPPORT LEGS UNDER THE FRONT DECK IN-BETWEEN THE 3 INCH STUB BRAKLINE COMING THREW THE FRONT CENTER OF YOUR HULL AND WHERE YOU ARE GONNA MOUNT YOUR PORTABLE GAS CAN FOR YOUR LQUID.. RUN THE 3/8 FUEL LINE FROM THE FRONT OF THE FUEL CAN TO THE FUEL PUMP THEN FROM THE FUEL PUMP TO THE STUB TEE BRAKLINE.(TRY TO GET THE FUELINE AS FAR ON THE TEE AS POSSIBLE AND TIGHT TO YOUR HULL BEFORE CLAMPIN FOR A NICE TIGHT FIT AND TO PREVENT ANY SLOP OR MOVEMENT ON YOUR OILER LINE)NOW ALL YOU HAVE LEFT IS TO WIRE THE ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP.. (THERES 2 WAYS) YOU CAN EITHER RUN IT TO A TOGGLE SWITCH ON YOUR CONSOLE OR LIKE MOST OF US DO IT RUN THE WIRE NICE AND CLEAN UP TO AND THREW THE CENTER OF YOUR RUDDER STICK AND MOUNT IT AS A HOT BUTTON YOU PUSH WITH YOUR THUMB (LIKE A NOS BUTTON ) IF YOU DONT HAVE A NOS BUTTON YOU CAN USE A DOORBELL BUTTON ALSO.. THIS IS TOTALLY LEGAL AS LONG AS USE USE BIO-DEGRADABLE SOAPS AND WATER MIX OR JUST PLAIN WATER.(ITS A GOOD IDEAD TO KEEP THE BOTTLE OF WHAT YOUR USING THAT SAYS BIO-DEGRADABLE WITH YOU ON THE BOAT IN-CASE A GAMEWARDEN ASKS) I HOPE THIS HELPS , IF ANYONE HAS QUESTIONS OR NEEDS HELP SHOOT ME A E-MAIL ILL BE GLAD TO HELP!! EVERYONE CANT AFFORD BAD-ASS MOTORS OR NOS, SO THIS MAY HELP A PO-BOY FROM A DAY OF PUSHIN HIS BOAT!!.....LOL...
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Post by cowboy » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:29 pm

Yeah,
I was thinking of mentionig that to him, but wasn't sure how he would take it.

That's quite a write up you did there. Guess thats what you gotta do with them new fangled sheetmetal rakes huh?.

We got mostly tube rakes on our boats.
We got Donny Tooten to work on our hull, and fix it back up.

After he saw it re-rigged, he was cussing "after all that $#!*, and you go and put a tube rake on it"!
Guess he figured theres just no hope for some people.

We have one rigged up with a sprayer, and just drilled the mounting bolts for the rake. The squirt hole is in one flat of the bolt head hex, and the shank of the bolt drilled down towards the bolt head.
One on each side of the bow holding the rake tube. You run rubber hose from the spay tank, and put it over the end of the bolt.

Sprays like crazy.

Can't even tell its there.

No fossil based hydrocarbons used here.
Actually we don't even use it, but it's there.

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Post by D-BREWSTER » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:36 pm

OLD DONNY !! HOW'ED YOU GET HIM TO DO ANY HULL WORK , MUST OF BEEN AWHILE BACK....LOL..HE LIKES TO STAY CLEAN IN THAT NICE SHOP AND DO MOTOR AND MAG WORK ANYMORE..LOL.. CANT BLAME HIM THERE..HES A DAM GOOD GUY AND DOES GOOD WORK AND TREATS YOU REAL FAIR, IM FIXING TO GO SEE HIM SOON AND LET'EM ORDER ME SOME PARTS FOR THIS I-0470 I JUST PICKED UP..
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Post by PredatorI0540 » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:51 pm

2900-3000 is perfect, nomore or less. 2750 isnt enough, because sometimes its takes 2750 to get it to run on the ground, and what will you do when you need a little more? but i'd take the polymer off and put slick bottom on it, and it will run dry like a champ.. If you got the money id put 520's on it too
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Post by JD » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:51 pm

Predator, What are 520's.

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Post by dblj006 » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:31 pm

JD,
Check your messages I sent you a P.M..

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Post by dblj006 » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:51 pm


JD
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Post by JD » Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:44 pm

dblj006, Great info...The motor does have 20 fins per cylinder, got the wife to go check it. I'm at work tonight but I'll try to check some of the numbers later. I looked awhile back and could only find some numbers on the top of the case that didn't match anything that I had info on. The addition to the hull was a pain but it went well and the bottom had no warpage being 3/16. It flares up on both sides a few degrees about 12" from the sides. The sides are 1/8 and had some mild warpage but the paint job camoed that. If you didn't know that I added to it, most people would never know by looking at it. It has jacks built in the frame but they are not jacked down because the bottom is flat, not dented up. Maybe they need some down pressure to round the hull some? Anyway, the motor seems solid with some oil usage( half a quart in 5 or 6 hours of frogging) or a 60 mile round trip up and down the river. A very mild puff of smoke when you nail it from an idle. I'm wondering if the timing is off some would it still rev to 2700 rpm but not have all it's power?

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Post by dblj006 » Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:12 pm

JD,
The engine timing is all gear train. Magneto timing is a different story.
There another thread covering that currently. But if you had issues there
I'm thinking it would hard start or run rough or try to diesel( run on)
when you shut it down. Mags are set with the engine off using a timing box so you can synchronize them together. It's either right or it's not.

Post us a picture, I'd like to see what you are running.

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