Why Not A Crate Engine?

Automotive powered airboat discussion.
User avatar
digginfool
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2763
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:00 pm
Location: South Florida

Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by digginfool »

I recently received the latest issue of a popular auto parts catalog and was surprised to see an all aluminum LS3 rated at 525 HP and 489 lb-ft torque for $8,500.00. Engine controller, accelerator pedal and harness adds $1,400.00. That appears to be quite a savings. AND, the motor is directly from Chevrolet Performance; it is not a third party engine builder. Any reason not to use this engine?
Attachments
dyno-chart-ls376-525-482x244.jpg
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it” - Bastiat

User avatar
jaxduramax
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:36 pm
Location: Jacksonville, NC

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by jaxduramax »

I am new here, but did a search recently and came up with nothing. Multiple users here state that there are different "specs' (used loosely) for airboat applications but I cant find anything concrete. To me, a cam with a very broad rpm range for hp/tq production seems like the only explanation. Anybody with facts, please enlighten me as well.

flying fish
Site Supporter - II
Site Supporter - II
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:09 pm
Location: Elkhart, Kansas

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by flying fish »

warranty-
15' DB - 6.2 LSA - 4 blade 82" R - 2.52 CH-4

User avatar
digginfool
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2763
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:00 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by digginfool »

flying fish wrote:warranty-
Reasonable point but seriously; when was the last time you had a serious warranty issue on a modern motor?
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it” - Bastiat

Afflicted
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 419
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:22 pm

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by Afflicted »

Prolly got cheap azz valves... An when they start glowin on a hard run 1 might decide it wants to meet a piston

Afflicted
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 419
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:22 pm

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by Afflicted »

Is it the circle track 376ci ?

User avatar
digginfool
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2763
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:00 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by digginfool »

Afflicted wrote:Is it the circle track 376ci ?
yes. Nice flat torque curve and HP where you can use it.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it” - Bastiat

Afflicted
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 419
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:22 pm

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by Afflicted »

Just found em for $6,829. Who gonna be the Guinea pig?

User avatar
digginfool
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2763
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:00 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by digginfool »

Afflicted wrote:Just found em for $6,829. Who gonna be the Guinea pig?

I'm thinking something along a Benny Webb, Don Davis or DM; 13x7'6" Won't run with Helms but it would still be a hoot and a good frog boat. :wink:
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it” - Bastiat

User avatar
DynaMarine
Site Supporter - VIII
Site Supporter - VIII
Posts: 1516
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:20 pm
Location: Lawrence, KS
Contact:

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by DynaMarine »

Set up right it should be a damn fun running boat
Shane Lavalette
President/Owner

DynaMarine Performance Boats
785.218.9449
www.dyna-marine.com
shane@dyna-marine.com

User avatar
:)
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 2110
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:07 pm
Location: Baker County, Florida
Contact:

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by :) »

Shane, u should be the guiniea pig!! Be a way more affordable route for customers to go.. Just a thought.
14 ft Combee. 4 seater, BPE 383 sb chevy, 2.09 stinger, 3 blade ww stump puller.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

gchuckie
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:50 pm

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by gchuckie »

Time you add a gear box and bigger prop. you would be better off building a stout ac and it comes with a one year warranty! And it still would be cheaper. And rigged right would still out perform the cm. :stirpot:

User avatar
digginfool
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2763
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:00 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by digginfool »

gchuckie wrote:Time you add a gear box and bigger prop. you would be better off building a stout ac and it comes with a one year warranty! And it still would be cheaper. And rigged right would still out perform the cm. :stirpot:
Maybe cheaper but not by much. Schmidt gets $12,500 for a 300 HP Upstack ($3,200 for a gearbox so no real difference), props would be nearly the same. Might spend $1,500 more for the cm but you can also go much, much farther performance wise if you want more. You would make up the difference in no time with the fuel cost differential, not to mention if you have to start replacing parts on the a/c motor. 100LL smells cool but hard on the wallet.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it” - Bastiat

big3country8
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 1795
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:25 pm
Location: merritt island

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by big3country8 »

Only reason I see not to get a crate motor like above mentioned is it has stock parts in it for the rotating assembly, stock oil pump. When you buy an airboat motor 9 times out of 10 you get a forged rotating assembly, aftermarket oil pump, aftermarket pushrods, valves, valve springs. Generally they will change bearing clearances for airboat application. Internal oiling modifications. There's many things that make them airboat specific and most come from the racing world.
Temporary High
12' clendenin aluminum step with poly, 418 waterthunder, 2.68 OX, 9 blade saber, ATF rigged, nitrous outlet,, buttrax custom seats.

todd glover
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 1956
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 6:56 pm

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by todd glover »

Those crate motors usually have stk pistons rods etc which will be fine for most but once you add nos a blower etc stk goes bad quick as for the myth of cm made.for an airboat that's a straight lie no such thing build a motor for whatever power level you want add the correct gearbox and go no special cam or this or that all horse piss.

User avatar
DynaMarine
Site Supporter - VIII
Site Supporter - VIII
Posts: 1516
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:20 pm
Location: Lawrence, KS
Contact:

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by DynaMarine »

I disagree some on the crate motor vs built. PCM, Marine Power, Kodiak Marine, Idmar and all the other 'OEM' marine engine suppliers aren't tearing apart the LSA and other motors, they simply modifying tune and adding their marinized setup to a GM crate engines. At least on their 550hp and below options. I've flogged the living piss out of an LSA and dang thing is bulletproof as they come. Would see why the 6.0 and other lower horsepower NA engines would be any different.

Not saying they won't come apart, and not saying every crate engine is equal...but I've spent plenty of time on the phone talking with crate engine suppliers in and out of the boat industry and 99% of them aren't tearing into a GM crate engine. GM puts millions and millions into engine R&D and torture testing, way more than smaller engine builders. Not knocking smaller builders, but to discount a GM crate engine over a custom built engine I feel is somewhat foolish.

Just my 2cents
Shane Lavalette
President/Owner

DynaMarine Performance Boats
785.218.9449
www.dyna-marine.com
shane@dyna-marine.com

Seven3
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:09 am
Location: Broward

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by Seven3 »

digginfool wrote:
Afflicted wrote:Just found em for $6,829. Who gonna be the Guinea pig?

I'm thinking something along a Benny Webb, Don Davis or DM; 13x7'6" Won't run with Helms but it would still be a hoot and a good frog boat. :wink:
I haven't convinced you yet that if you ever get a riveted sled it should be built by Don? :lol: I was talking to my pops this morning about his next boat and we were discussing the CM vs AC debate. Neither of us have ever had a CM, but the positives seem undeniable. We'll see what happens, he loves his 540s...but a 12x7'4 Don Davis with a moderate LS sounds like a plan to me. I think a basic crate LS would do fine on a typical ride boat.

User avatar
jaxduramax
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:36 pm
Location: Jacksonville, NC

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by jaxduramax »

Stock bottom ends on those gen 4 motors ain't no joke. Got a buddy with an 80mm ( yes 80 ) trim turbo on a 6.2 in a Silverado and all he did was ARP rod bolts. Twists the rollers to the tune of 700 hp. Some have taken them well past that. And that's with a solid junkyard Escalade motor. Dollar for dollar, I'd carb a 6.2 and add a good cam and let her eat.

User avatar
jaxduramax
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:36 pm
Location: Jacksonville, NC

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by jaxduramax »

Somebody at HPtuners might get you on the right track with a tune to keep the complete efi.

User avatar
Bruce
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 4793
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: orange county fl
Contact:

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by Bruce »

big3country8 wrote:Only reason I see not to get a crate motor like above mentioned is it has stock parts in it for the rotating assembly, stock oil pump. When you buy an airboat motor 9 times out of 10 you get a forged rotating assembly, aftermarket oil pump, aftermarket pushrods, valves, valve springs. Generally they will change bearing clearances for airboat application. Internal oiling modifications. There's many things that make them airboat specific and most come from the racing world.
Gm spends millions in r&d to build good products made for one another not hacked up stuff you get from "engine" builders i have ran the snot out of a stock ls3 on a overbuilt boat and 1200 hours later shes still alive and kickin my vote is if its a gm performance crate motor go for it
12 foot Mamba "The Underdog"
Tired Gpu 520,Whirlwind Razor X

User avatar
skinny99
Site Supporter - II
Site Supporter - II
Posts: 1182
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:20 pm
Location: Deltona, FL

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by skinny99 »

That is the crate 525 that is used extensively in Dirt Late Model racing. They turn them 7000+ RPM's for 1000's of laps, in a very harsh environment. It is not your typical crate engine that has a crappy rotating assembly mated to a big cam and cheap cylinder heads. It was designed and built to take abuse. Trust me a Dirt Late Model is easily as hard on engines as an airboat. The oiling system on those are also upgraded to live at higher RPM's for extended periods that a racecar sees.

If was going carmotor again I wouldn't hesitate to use one. I have seen slightly used ones selling for under $5000 complete with all accessories except alternator.

Digginfool prob won't be happy no matter what he gets based on history but this would prob be a good choice.
Successful people do what others won't or can't!

User avatar
digginfool
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2763
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:00 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by digginfool »

Seven3 wrote:
digginfool wrote:I'm thinking something along a Benny Webb, Don Davis or DM; 13x7'6" Won't run with Helms but it would still be a hoot and a good frog boat. :wink:
I haven't convinced you yet that if you ever get a riveted sled it should be built by Don? :lol: I was talking to my pops this morning about his next boat and we were discussing the CM vs AC debate. Neither of us have ever had a CM, but the positives seem undeniable. We'll see what happens, he loves his 540s...but a 12x7'4 Don Davis with a moderate LS sounds like a plan to me. I think a basic crate LS would do fine on a typical ride boat.
Maybe when you and pops are ready to place your order, we can get a 3fer discount. ;)
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it” - Bastiat

chuckitt@earthlink.net
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:43 pm
Location: Lake Panasoffkee
Contact:

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by chuckitt@earthlink.net »

That 12 X 7-4 Don Davis is a perfect hull for a Chevy Cruze 1.4L Turbo. Just think how you would feel cruzing the glades at 25 miles per hr and getting about 12+ miles per gallon. Then put your foot down and run all the dry you want.
GM builds crate engines for many diff applications. For an airboat, I would pick one with high torque # at low rpm's.
For a low budget build I would pick the 350 ZZ4. 405 ft lbs torque at 3600 rpm. Set the pitch for max rpm at 5100.
My next pick for pricing would be the ZZ383/425. Hold the max rpm for this engine at 5100 also.
For the LS on an airboat, I would pick the LS376/480 over the LS376/515. The 480 has a better torque curve and 475 @ 4500 while the 515 is 469 @ 5000. The 480 will live longer due to the fuel injection system keeping the air/fuel ratio perfect while the carbed 515 is only as good as the turner can make it. The LS engines will live at 5600 rpm's but I like holding the max rpm to 5400. There is many more hours of riding at lower rpm's before any repairs are needed.
These engines will take most boats where you want to go and are more affordable.
Thanks, Chuck

User avatar
digginfool
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2763
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:00 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by digginfool »

chuckitt@earthlink.net wrote:That 12 X 7-4 Don Davis is a perfect hull for a Chevy Cruze 1.4L Turbo. Just think how you would feel cruzing the glades at 25 miles per hr and getting about 12+ miles per gallon. Then put your foot down and run all the dry you want.
GM builds crate engines for many diff applications. For an airboat, I would pick one with high torque # at low rpm's.
For a low budget build I would pick the 350 ZZ4. 405 ft lbs torque at 3600 rpm. Set the pitch for max rpm at 5100.
My next pick for pricing would be the ZZ383/425. Hold the max rpm for this engine at 5100 also.
For the LS on an airboat, I would pick the LS376/480 over the LS376/515. The 480 has a better torque curve and 475 @ 4500 while the 515 is 469 @ 5000. The 480 will live longer due to the fuel injection system keeping the air/fuel ratio perfect while the carbed 515 is only as good as the turner can make it. The LS engines will live at 5600 rpm's but I like holding the max rpm to 5400. There is many more hours of riding at lower rpm's before any repairs are needed.
These engines will take most boats where you want to go and are more affordable.
Thanks, Chuck
You forgot the LS3 525, which is the motor I'm talking about. It is fuel injected. Peak torque (489 lb-ft) occurs at 4,400 RPM. The motor is also making over 400 lb-ft even at 3,000 RPM and still just under 450 lb-ft at 6,300 RPM; a nice, wide, flat curve. I don't see how this couldn't be an excellent motor, especially for the price (I found it at $8,500, Afflicted found it for $6,900). Certainly there are others but it's hard to ignore these numbers.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it” - Bastiat

User avatar
Waterthunder
Site Supporter - VIII
Site Supporter - VIII
Posts: 8166
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Why Not A Crate Engine?

Post by Waterthunder »

Don't get the CT motor call this number and ask him about it 229-300-9262. He bought one an called me a hundred times about it. I don't think he got 10 hours out of it before a catastrophic failure occurred! Also stay away from any of the 6.2 motors that have DOD the pistons are failing at an alarming rate. There are lot's of good motors out there I would ask someone who has actually ran the motor your considering for at least a year before making a decision. Also never listen to the person that say's a friend of a friend or my neighbor only go by 1st hand info.
THE PROOF IS IN THE PROP!

"If you copy someone you will only achieve what has already been done."

http://waterthunder.com/
321-508-5316

Post Reply

Return to “Automotive Power Only”