556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

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Sniper25
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556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby Sniper25 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:04 pm

I am wanting to start a new build, and was wondering the pros and cons ( if any ) of each engine. The price of each are pretty much comparable. I'm going to be putting it on a 14' 8' hull. I just want to know if either engine has and advantage over the other. This will not be a race boat. Just a bad ass ride boat. Any comments would be appreciated!!! (oh and I'm switching over from aircraft) :stirpot:
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby jopete » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:12 pm

i would imagine that either one would be a beast. that blue waterthunder nameplate will get u more girls i have been told.


i wanter a Felber BBC, and i drive a GPU. life aint always fair!!!!!

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby Afflicted » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:17 pm

WT. 44 more hp

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby T-REX » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:37 pm

And the WAterthunder is gonna be 100 lbs lighter( or 80?.... Just guessing).......being N/A...... Still 93 oct. with less crap to go wrong......more about efficiency.....if they both had the same hp- Dave's would still be quicker - just from the weight standpoint.
:thumbleft:

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby scottyroll » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:49 pm

Somebody posted in another thread that with a few mods you can get that LSA up to around 800 horse...just a thought.

But right out of the box the WT is going to supposedly have more HP and be lighter.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby digginfool » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:53 pm

I'm going to throw a couple of the thoughts that were running through my head when I bought my engine. The WT is pretty much topped out at 600 hp without re-inventing the motor. The LSA can easily be brought up to around 630 hp just by increasing the blower drive pulley (which costs about $200.00 - $400.00). If you wanted to jump into internals, put the LS9 cam ($135.00), better rockers (~$600.00) and port the blower snout (~$800.00), you are now looking around 700 hp or more. TKE just converted an LSA into a 418 and with the LS9 cam, pulley and rockers, made over 700 hp (my bad - had to correct it after the dyno sheet posted - I thought it had made over 800).

Now comes the bad news: the WT already has an all forged rotating assembly. The LSA has forged crank, powdered metal rods (plenty strong enough for the power we're talking here) but the real weak link is the hypereutectic pistons. Great pistons if you are daily driver and only stomping on it every now and then, not the best choice for hard core work. They can and will shatter at the first sign of detonation. Theoretically, they should be good for 900 - 1,000 hp but are you willing to risk your whole motor? If I had to do it over again, I think I would still go with the LSA only because I have my sled that will soon have a very healthy 540 on it for when I want to feel serious acceleration. All the hp in the world will never make my barge a sports machine but if I didn't have the sled, I would have gone with a purpose built 418, probably supercharged, only for the few times when you have to stand on it and don't want to worry about your pistons turning into hand grenades. Don't get me wrong; the LSA so far has been great. I've put a little over 70 hours on it and I'm pretty well satisfied but I do wish I had been willing to pony up for a purpose built motor. Let me take that back; if I had to do it over again, I would go for the all-aluminum DART 540 BBC that MAS sells. 800 hp, naturally aspirated, weighs less than an LS3. Of course, you're talking >$20K. JS 8)
Last edited by digginfool on Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby Oilfield Trash » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:53 pm

Afflicted wrote:WT. 44 more hp


556 on that LSA is the GM #'s when it's in a car with restrictive headers and intake.... In an airboat application with some Norman Clay headers and a big fat 9" K&N on the snout it's closer to 600hp (according to a GM engineer).

Sniper I live in Cocoa your welcome to come run mine. I've had it about 2 years and have had zero issues.

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby Oilfield Trash » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:55 pm

T-REX wrote:And the WAterthunder is gonna be 100 lbs lighter( or 80?.... Just guessing).......being N/A...... Still 93 oct. with less crap to go wrong......more about efficiency.....if they both had the same hp- Dave's would still be quicker - just from the weight standpoint.
:thumbleft:


I'll give ya the less crap on the waterthunder motor but as far as 100lbs lighter I don't know about that.... My shipping slip said 485lbs. If waterthunder is building a 385lb motor putting out 600hp I want one...

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby digginfool » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:59 pm

Oilfield Trash wrote:
Afflicted wrote:WT. 44 more hp


556 on that LSA is the GM #'s when it's in a car with restrictive headers and intake.... In an airboat application with some Norman Clay headers and a big fat 9" K&N on the snout it's closer to 600hp (according to a GM engineer).

Sniper I live in Cocoa your welcome to come run mine. I've had it about 2 years and have had zero issues.


That 556 hp is at 6,200 RPM, which the motor will never see in an airboat. At 5,400 RPM, where most people will pitch their prop to, the motor is making ~530 hp.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby Oilfield Trash » Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:02 pm

digginfool wrote: but I do wish I had been willing to pony up for a purpose built motor. Let me take that back; if I had to do it over again, I would go for the all-aluminum DART 540 BBC that MAS sells. 800 hp, naturally aspirated, weighs less than an LS3. Of course, you're talking >$20K. JS 8)


Feel the same way!! Couldn't be happier with the way mine performs but my next motor will be along those lines.

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby Sniper25 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:04 pm

I know they are both good motors. I have seen an LSA with a 4bld push a big 15 barge loaded anywhere it wanted to go. I've just never had the experience of being around to manny WT boats. I know the WT engines are well built, but having an engine pushed that close to it limits makes me nerviouse. I just want to be able to go wherever I want without running the dog crap out of the engine. I do like the fact that the LSA can easily be hopped up for more hp.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby digginfool » Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:04 pm

Proof in the pudding.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby digginfool » Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:11 pm

Sniper25 wrote:I know they are both good motors. I have seen an LSA with a 4bld push a big 15 barge loaded anywhere it wanted to go. I've just never had the experience of being around to manny WT boats. I know the WT engines are well built, but having an engine pushed that close to it limits makes me nerviouse. I just want to be able to go wherever I want without running the dog crap out of the engine. I do like the fact that the LSA can easily be hopped up for more hp.


My boat is a 15' DB with oval tube aluminum rigging and seating for 7. My LSA is turning an 82" 4 blade NGR through a 2.5 Ballistic and it literally goes anywhere it's pointed. The only time it's been stuck since I got the LSA is when I had to run my 80 inch Powershift (and that was after running dry in Gardner's for several miles; poly got hot and boat stopped) while the NGR was in the shop for repairs. Like I said, overall I'm pretty well satisfied.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby T-REX » Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:21 pm

:violent1:


Your right.... Dave is selling MAXED OUT RACE engines.
Everyone of em'...........

First thing you need to do with that LSA turd- is take that factory supercharger off- sell it for 400$( like everybody else does) and spend 3500$ on a good aftermarket one.......that might get you 150 more horses.... With the SUPPORTING mods( like ported heads(+1000$)and big injectors( +300$) a real intercooler(+ ?).another 5 or 600$ to get it remapped......

Maybe You shoulda just bought a Levitator......

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby Oilfield Trash » Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:45 pm

digginfool wrote:Proof in the pudding.


Yep proof that a cadillac CTS-V with stock headers, intake, and tune make the 556 HP.

I'm not gonna argue you 30-50HP cause it really doesn't matter but you're low balling yourself unless you are running CTS-V stock headers, a CTS-V intake, and a GM factory tune.....

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby digginfool » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:45 pm

T-REX wrote::violent1:


Your right.... Dave is selling MAXED OUT RACE engines.
Everyone of em'...........

First thing you need to do with that LSA turd- is take that factory supercharger off- sell it for 400$( like everybody else does) and spend 3500$ on a good aftermarket one.......that might get you 150 more horses.... With the SUPPORTING mods( like ported heads(+1000$)and big injectors( +300$) a real intercooler(+ ?).another 5 or 600$ to get it remapped......

Maybe You shoulda just bought a Levitator......


And the Levitator is special for what? And as far as the 1.9 blower that comes stock, there is a huge market for them from the Coyote crowd. The reason they say $3,500 for an upgraded blower is because that's after selling the stock blower and applying that money towards the $6,800 2.3 liter blower.

As far as the WT 418, how much more power can you get out of NA 418 and still have reasonable manners, reliability and durability? That's why he adds cubes for more power which is precisely what I mean when I say you would have to reinvent the motor. Nothing against what they build. Clearly his reputation speaks for itself. Sniper25 already said he isn't trying to build a race boat, just a hot ride boat. The 418 will start getting too radical (read: narrow and top heavy power band) much past 600 hp. A supercharged motor will have a much wider, more usable power band.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby loudmouse » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:47 pm

$$ to donuts would be to take the boosted hp over the naturally aspirated. Here is another option. Buy a brand new LS from gm. Then buy a Procharger kit for it. Then u will need a retune and bam more hp than both of those and will run on pump gas. Ain't it great to have so many choices?
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby lariat » Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:01 pm

Sniper25 wrote:I am wanting to start a new build, and was wondering the pros and cons ( if any ) of each engine. The price of each are pretty much comparable. I'm going to be putting it on a 14' 8' hull. I just want to know if either engine has and advantage over the other. This will not be a race boat. Just a bad ass ride boat. Any comments would be appreciated!!! (oh and I'm switching over from aircraft) :stirpot:


I think Tony recently made that switch too. Ask him how the riding has been lately. :shock:

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby Afflicted » Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:40 pm

I agree with Blackwaterairboats. MAS has all aluminum 454LS 650hp priced about the same an has 2 year warranty

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby Sniper25 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:40 pm

I know diamondback puts a lot of mast engines on their boats. I haven't heard anything bad about them. I guess it all boils down to a persons experience with a particular engine and preference. Like I said before I'm makeing the switch from an ac boat. None of theses motors are cheap and I don't want to make a costly mistake! Longevity is key for me.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby Bruce » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:09 pm

db also uses the pcm 550 lsa on their work boats and theyre excellent from what ive seen pcm is great because they are self contained motor complete with fuel system computer etc
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby HuntingBigun » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:44 pm

Sniper25 wrote:I know diamondback puts a lot of mast engines on their boats. I haven't heard anything bad about them. I guess it all boils down to a persons experience with a particular engine and preference. Like I said before I'm makeing the switch from an ac boat. None of theses motors are cheap and I don't want to make a costly mistake! Longevity is key for me.



All good choices I owned a 2008 WT 550 that dyno 600 for 5 years no big issues and it was a small cubic inch motor with upgraded valve train still going stong in LA last year, then had 2 LS7 427 CI Mast 750 Supercharged engines $$ but the first one is 4 years old still running strong for new owner and my current build only 3 months old but this one is a stud pulling 808 hp (bigger blower than the first one and big heads) all on heavy deckover ride boats

In the end of the day what your paying for compared to build your own etc is airboat tune, lots of people say they make airboat engine but failure rate is pretty high, self tune is junk because holley did not think your going to run it 4000 rpm for a hour, try that with stock LS in corvette and it go boom most of the time, so go with the one that has best internals, HP and airboat proven that you can afford I never own a non supercharged engine in a heavy ride boat again light weight boat different story but still go supercharged having torgue at low rpm with supercharger is like nitros but you do not have to fill the bottle :salute:

I also turn all these 6000 rpm no issues but they are built for it, kind like Mast will not give anyone over 800hsp in airboat and warranty it they build as many LS engines as anyone more than most plus their own heads etc there is a reason they will not take your money over 800. Wait time is over 3 months for a Mast 750

Buy supercharged you appreciate not having to turn WOT all the time, but $$$ get pretty high when you leave the stock lsa engine :violent1: MAST, MAS or whoever compare what inside more than advertised HP so if will live a long happy life

Good luck on your build
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby farmboy » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:44 pm

If it where me Id take some time and check out the Mas engines. There's a couple guys that run them over hear in my neck of the woods and they run really good and has had no issues with them. I don't think you could go wrong with them..
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby farmboy » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:51 pm

lariat wrote:
Sniper25 wrote:I am wanting to start a new build, and was wondering the pros and cons ( if any ) of each engine. The price of each are pretty much comparable. I'm going to be putting it on a 14' 8' hull. I just want to know if either engine has and advantage over the other. This will not be a race boat. Just a bad ass ride boat. Any comments would be appreciated!!! (oh and I'm switching over from aircraft) :stirpot:


I think Tony recently made that switch too. Ask him how the riding has been lately. :shock:

Oh boy :lol: :lol:
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Postby HuntingBigun » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:53 pm

Never owned a MAS but my buddy is dealer for Mas call keith 352-282-6407 ie muffled500 on here heck he been working in airboat world for years and can hook you up and he started the Mas program with GTO airboats I will say they are newer in the LS world, Dave is the granddaddy and Mast is 2nd airboat spefic LS engines wish Mast could cut the wait time but they got folks lined up waiting heck mine was special build took 4 months :shock: But MAS warranty and they have been build SBC airboat engines as long as Dave more or less. They were the first to offer 2 year warranty
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