556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Automotive powered airboat discussion.
flying fish
Site Supporter - II
Site Supporter - II
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:09 pm
Location: Elkhart, Kansas

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by flying fish » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:12 am

digginfool wrote:
digginfool wrote:Using the parental copout of 'because I said so' doesn't cut it. How about some hard numbers? For me, today, I ran 40.38 miles at an average speed of 26.4 mph. At 2,400 rpm I was going 22.8 mph. At 2,700 rpm, 27.5 mph and at 3,200 rpm, I was going 33.2 mph. Two boats got stuck where I feathered the throttle. Tell me how my boat is over propped. Tomorrow, after I top ofc the fuel, I'll tell you my mileage.
14.5 gallons for 2.8 mpg. Not too bad for an over-propped pig.
Sounds like you are very happy with your boat and don't need 150ish more horse to get your prop in the sweet spot talking pitch being ran.

I been in the Oilfield since I was a pup. I like this type (Oilfield) communication.
"Chris, I think you are full of sh!t." you already explained why. ............ Works for me. :)
15' DB - 6.2 LSA - 4 blade 82" R - 2.52 CH-4

CarMotorBarge
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 940
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Lake Harney Woods

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by CarMotorBarge » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:36 pm

Sniper25 wrote:I am wanting to start a new build, and was wondering the pros and cons ( if any ) of each engine. The price of each are pretty much comparable. I'm going to be putting it on a 14' 8' hull. I just want to know if either engine has and advantage over the other. This will not be a race boat. Just a bad ass ride boat. Any comments would be appreciated!!! (oh and I'm switching over from aircraft) :stirpot:
PM me if you would like to ride on a boat with a WT motor. I know several people that run them and can get you a ride on one. Not trying to push WT motors. Just trying to help out by providing accurate info so that you can make a well informed decision. I have always noticed that you learn a lot when you ride on an airboat and experience it first hand. I would also recommend riding an airboat with an LSA. I just don't know personally as many people with these motors.

Also I would strongly recommend against listening to pukewaterairboats about getting a BBC. I have owned a 540 BBC from MAS turning a 4 blade superwide with a 2.55 gearbox. Given that you are used to an A/C motor, a cast iron BBC will feel like an anchor. The BBC airboat will not be as nimble or as sporty as the LS. Throw an extra 300 lbs on your A/C boat and see if it is sportier.
14x7.5 Al David hull with 14 inch transom
419 CI Horsepower Barn LS3 with 2.88 Ox Box swinging 4 blade 83.5" R
GTO Rigging and B&S Tilt Trailer

Sniper25
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:02 pm
Location: Cocoa

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Sniper25 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:26 am

I appreciate the invite guys. I plan on trying to ride on as many boats with similar setup to what I'm looking for as I can. I think that's the only way to get a true feel for each set up. I think the BBC isn't going to work for me though. I've driven a few. It feels like driving a dump truck after driving my AC boat. I've actually contacted Mast this week to ask about their 550hp cyclone package. I really want to make a well educated purchase. But the only way to really decide will be by seat of the pants stick time.( oh and I will say that the big block boats that I have driven were not big hp boats. They were probably underpowered for the size of the boat that they were on.) So I'm sure that didn't help.
14' Laser / 520 Cont.
Losing faith in humanity one person at a time!!!

User avatar
DynaMarine
Site Supporter - VIII
Site Supporter - VIII
Posts: 1516
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:20 pm
Location: Lawrence, KS
Contact:

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by DynaMarine » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:38 am

If you're considering the MAST 550hp, don't count out the TKE 580hp for the same or less $$$ shipped to your door. Currently 4-5 weeks on motors, be sure and check the lead time on MAST.
Shane Lavalette
President/Owner

DynaMarine Performance Boats
785.218.9449
www.dyna-marine.com
shane@dyna-marine.com

User avatar
Bruce
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 4793
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: orange county fl
Contact:

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Bruce » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:44 am

blackwaterairboats wrote:Sniper25 I've owned both and in my opinion most carboats feel like dump trucks when you go from Ac. A small block would surely be a better choice for you on a 14' boat. I just wanted to offer you to ride and drive mine. The only way my motor would work good on a 14' boat would be the all aluminum one that weighs 448lbs. Also you should give Mas a call and see what they have to offer for a motor that will work for your liking.
you might be surprised my neighbor has a 540 ci bbc iron block on a 14x8 boat and its a definite tractor have ridden on it and been around it enough to know this to be a fact
12 foot Mamba "The Underdog"
Tired Gpu 520,Whirlwind Razor X

general1eye
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:00 am

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by general1eye » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:17 pm

I have owned 2 LSA's and now I have a Water Thunder 418 all aluminum and the WT has been a far more reliable and better performing motor than the LSA. I have put about 120 hours on it in 5 months and not a hiccup. The LSA's had issues with the electronic throttle, fuel pump issues, and a bunch of other little things. In addition, you need an extra cooling system for the supercharger and all the extra pumps hoses. WT or a naturally aspirated LS motor is a much better option in my opinion.

Sniper25
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:02 pm
Location: Cocoa

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Sniper25 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:05 pm

I went to one of the big airboat manufacturers today to get a quote for a new boat. The owner said that the LSA was a much better choice. He said that in his experience the LSA was a more reliable motor. He also said I should probably step up to a 14"8-8 since I wanted to run the side by side rear operator set up. He said that for this set up with a 4 bld should be a beast!
14' Laser / 520 Cont.
Losing faith in humanity one person at a time!!!

User avatar
digginfool
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2720
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:00 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by digginfool » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:29 pm

Sniper25 wrote:I went to one of the big airboat manufacturers today to get a quote for a new boat. The owner said that the LSA was a much better choice. He said that in his experience the LSA was a more reliable motor. He also said I should probably step up to a 14"8-8 since I wanted to run the side by side rear operator set up. He said that for this set up with a 4 bld should be a beast!
You will be running essentially what I have. You will not be disappointed.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it” - Bastiat

User avatar
Tony480
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 5277
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:52 pm
Location: lake county

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Tony480 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:46 pm

I'd take the 418...more power,less weight,less electronics, and overall less stuff to worry about

SWAMPHUNTER45
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2813
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:38 am
Location: Naturecoast, Florida

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:57 pm

If your wealthy or have a significant amount of unallocated income an LSA is a great choice. A few years down the road is when the LSA will look less attractive than a naturally aspirated build.

User avatar
digginfool
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2720
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:00 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by digginfool » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:49 am

And when that day comes, yoy have a great platform for massive power. That was my point from the beginning the 418 is a very good motor but if you find tge LSA lacking, put a forged stroker kit, rockers, cam and program for a near bulket proof 725 ho. JS
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it” - Bastiat

T-REX
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 1696
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:10 am

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by T-REX » Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:13 am

Omg. Really??!! :slap:

Wtf do you think dave puts in these( his 418) motors??!!!!
So instead of STARTING off with good forged everything in Dave's motor you
Are now suggesting this?!
Holycow.
You've done nothing but complain about your LSA since you got it- you refuse to get it remapped
As others( that have experience and success with it) have suggested. You only take it it what 52-5400 rpms.
The 'first' REAL limiting factor on your LSA is probably YOU.
The next being the actual supercharger itself and the factory intercooler.
Not the internals ......
:banghead:

User avatar
Tony480
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 5277
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:52 pm
Location: lake county

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Tony480 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:02 am

The LSA does come factory with a forged crank. But same shitty pistons as in the rest. Those little huffers on the LSA really aren't the greatest for a stroker motor.

User avatar
air-roberts
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 1799
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:01 am
Location: cocoa / canaveral groves

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by air-roberts » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:39 am

that's what we've been trying to advise in since the beginning of thread like me and tony and others have said. who would want to spend all that money in a new motor and then take it apart and put good stuff in it when daves already has the best of best not to add the reputation which speaks for itself and if you want to wait till it breaks to put in new forged stuff i've seen plenty of pistons come apart that takes the block out also in fact dave gave me a dummy block that proves it
Air-RobertsImage
experimenting with old step w/t experimental 384.8 c.i. nos 2.68 rotator, 80" three bld ? R
http://www.bcraceengineering.com
Thanks to dave http://waterthunder.com/
New & Used PROPs
WhirlWind prop dealer

flying fish
Site Supporter - II
Site Supporter - II
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:09 pm
Location: Elkhart, Kansas

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by flying fish » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:46 am

I run a MAST N/A 416 VVT on my fishing boat. I don't beat on it. Don't have to. I really like the motor. Geez, has big power. 80+ hours.

I have a new LSA and have held it wide open for 1 minute so many times since I got it.
5200 governed when I got it home. 5500-5550 governed after 5 hours and haven't changed anything.
Oil still looks brand new. Excellent ring seal.

LSA is way smooth and seems powerful. LSA powering wifes boat. She paying for it. :)

Talking my boat and wifes LSA. I configured both.
Wife asked me what was the smoothest motor. IMO-LSA

MAST configured bulldozer. Ground burner. Climbs easily from dead stop. Boat not heavy.

LSA configured with long legs. Smoothest, fastest combo I ever drove with power produced. Way fast compared to Bulldozer. :)
Tradeoff is opposite on each combination. JMO-


Question. Honestly.
Does the PCM LSA ever break? I ain't talking go into limp mode, do they actually break?
Somehow, I doubt it, or DB wouldn't be pushing them. JMO-

Shane has experience beating on the LSA & the N/A stroker LS. Keep thinking he will share his experience.
15' DB - 6.2 LSA - 4 blade 82" R - 2.52 CH-4

flying fish
Site Supporter - II
Site Supporter - II
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:09 pm
Location: Elkhart, Kansas

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by flying fish » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:44 am

I run with many Waterthunder pieces. Iron block LS to all Alluminum near 500" CID LS.
The Waterthunder RHS piece probalby big secret. Owner may say it is a 418. Ok though he says he catches fish also. :)

One Waterthunder LS has been in the area for many years (7 or 8?) and get hammered hard. Never ever seen not one of these engines have an issue.
15' DB - 6.2 LSA - 4 blade 82" R - 2.52 CH-4

User avatar
digginfool
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2720
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:00 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by digginfool » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:06 am

Go back and read my first post on page one.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it” - Bastiat

flying fish
Site Supporter - II
Site Supporter - II
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:09 pm
Location: Elkhart, Kansas

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by flying fish » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:29 am

I wish you would hurry up and stroke that LSA. :bounce:

Get that 150 horse you soooo need and I could see what kind of longetivity you be getting out of that piece. What you waiting on??? :)
15' DB - 6.2 LSA - 4 blade 82" R - 2.52 CH-4

User avatar
digginfool
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2720
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:00 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by digginfool » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:33 am

I'm spending all my money right now building a 540 for my sled.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it” - Bastiat

Sniper25
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:02 pm
Location: Cocoa

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Sniper25 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:49 am

I drove on Oilfield Trash's boat this weekend. And I have to tell you, with a big boat like his and the LSA that thing was an animal!! we went places that I wouldn't even think of going in my AC boat. Thick nasty black mud, and tall sticky green grass. It was quick on the water as well! It just doesn't have the response that I'm used to, but I'm sure that will be the case going from AC to CM. I noticed that it took a lot more effort to steer his boat than mine. Granted his boat weighs twice as much, and is pushing a hell of a lot more air past the rudders. I'm not sure if people run bell crank style steering on big car motor boats like they do small AC boats. I think this may make the boat feel lighter and more effortless to drive. But again I'm not sure. Now I Just have to ride on a comparable WT boat before I can say I have truly made an educated decision.
14' Laser / 520 Cont.
Losing faith in humanity one person at a time!!!

User avatar
Blown
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:49 pm
Location: Williston, Florida

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Blown » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:12 pm

Sniper25 wrote:I drove on Oilfield Trash's boat this weekend. And I have to tell you, with a big boat like his and the LSA that thing was an animal!! we went places that I wouldn't even think of going in my AC boat. Thick nasty black mud, and tall sticky green grass. It was quick on the water as well! It just doesn't have the response that I'm used to, but I'm sure that will be the case going from AC to CM. I noticed that it took a lot more effort to steer his boat than mine. Granted his boat weighs twice as much, and is pushing a hell of a lot more air past the rudders. I'm not sure if people run bell crank style steering on big car motor boats like they do small AC boats. I think this may make the boat feel lighter and more effortless to drive. But again I'm not sure. Now I Just have to ride on a comparable WT boat before I can say I have truly made an educated decision.
Sniper
Get Todd to give you a ride now, I tuned it today and did the 8.6 pulley and picked up 225-250 RPM on the trailer with the same pitch and way snappier.
Todd has a nice boat, he is gonna run it on the water and see what it turns for RPM, we were 5450 on the trailer so should be about 5600 on the water, told him to take a touch of pitch out if he wanted and try for 5600-5700 on the trailer. good meeting you today Todd, I am sure I will be seeing you to ride soon.
2012 Diamaondback 15x8 Powered by LSA with 2.52 belt drive counter rotator

User avatar
Blown
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:49 pm
Location: Williston, Florida

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Blown » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:15 pm

Tony480 wrote:The LSA does come factory with a forged crank. But same shitty pistons as in the rest. Those little huffers on the LSA really aren't the greatest for a stroker motor.
What makes them shitty? Because they are not forged?...LMAO I am putting out almost 800hp with the same "shitty pistons" in my blown LS3.....its ALL about how you tune it to make it live...you get greedy with timing and shit fuel things go boom....even forged. As for the cranks...welll they seem to be good to 900+ so no need to worry there either.

As for the blower being too small for a stroker...yeah border line if you want more than 750HP but Shane posted a nice 740hp/730torque earlier on a 416 stroked LSA at 5700 rpm....pretty nice if you ask me.
Last edited by Blown on Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2012 Diamaondback 15x8 Powered by LSA with 2.52 belt drive counter rotator

Sniper25
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:02 pm
Location: Cocoa

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Sniper25 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:27 pm

I am looking forward to getting back on Todd's boat again (Blown). He told me he was doing the mod. I wanted to drive it before hand so I would have something to compare it to. It should definitely make it a little snappier!! it was already impressive.
14' Laser / 520 Cont.
Losing faith in humanity one person at a time!!!

Oilfield Trash
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:33 pm
Location: Cocoa

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Oilfield Trash » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:04 pm

Ya big thanks to Blown for taking the time to help a brotha out today!

James you thought it was good to go before when it was swinging 4 blades (too much prop lol) on garbage pistons and a fat tune - it's gonna be noticeably better now! Image

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

User avatar
DynaMarine
Site Supporter - VIII
Site Supporter - VIII
Posts: 1516
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:20 pm
Location: Lawrence, KS
Contact:

Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by DynaMarine » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:52 pm

Tony480 wrote:The LSA does come factory with a forged crank. But same shitty pistons as in the rest. Those little huffers on the LSA really aren't the greatest for a stroker motor.
While they may not be the best, they do pretty damn good for a stock blower. Mine makes all its power by 5800rpm, IAT never above 150° when hammered on. Made 730hp/730tq with a conservative tune.

Makes almost as much as your junkyard 483hp LS haha
Shane Lavalette
President/Owner

DynaMarine Performance Boats
785.218.9449
www.dyna-marine.com
shane@dyna-marine.com

Post Reply

Return to “Automotive Power Only”