556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Blown » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:26 pm

general1eye wrote:The man's from Williston-I forget his name.

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Is this Justin? If so...not being a smart ass but the issue was more than likely you, this boat was fully neglected when I got it, to own and maintain a piece of equipment like this YOU must understand and know how to work on everything not run it until it quits.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by JB550 » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:04 pm

Waterthunder wrote:You know what you all need is a 1000hp twin turbo, supercharged LS with a counter rotator.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Funny dave. So many these days feel like they gotta have 700 plus hp to run a little dry ground. I'll take my little ecoturd and go places those big barges can't any day.

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by general1eye » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:31 pm

I am not sure what you are referring too that it was neglected. I doubt you even know the story. We purchased that boat from a gentlemen named Ray Smith in Mims, FL and it had a brand new PCM LSA on it with 23 hours. That was not the motor that was on it when you bought it. We hated the original motor so much that we replaced it with a new motor from Turn Key, which was also supercharged and also a nightmare. The third motor, which was an lsa from Marine power, was a temp motor and apparently that one took a crap when you bought it. The boat probably wasn't in mint condition because it sat around so much being broke down. My naturally aspirated motor has ran perfect for 120 hours. Just my experience. 3 supercharged motors in 3 years and nothing but hell. Obviously other people have good experiences, but I did not and I like not having all the extra hoses/pulleys/radiators/pumps/extra crap/

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Blown » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:06 pm

general1eye wrote:I am not sure what you are referring too that it was neglected. I doubt you even know the story. We purchased that boat from a gentlemen named Ray Smith in Mims, FL and it had a brand new PCM LSA on it with 23 hours. That was not the motor that was on it when you bought it. We hated the original motor so much that we replaced it with a new motor from Turn Key, which was also supercharged and also a nightmare. The third motor, which was an lsa from Marine power, was a temp motor and apparently that one took a crap when you bought it. The boat probably wasn't in mint condition because it sat around so much being broke down. My naturally aspirated motor has ran perfect for 120 hours. Just my experience. 3 supercharged motors in 3 years and nothing but hell. Obviously other people have good experiences, but I did not and I like not having all the extra hoses/pulleys/radiators/pumps/extra crap/

It actually didn't take a crap when I bought it, we thought it did but it ended up being a cracked inter-cooler in the lid. I was referring to the over all condition of everything, the wiring was a hack job, the pump for the super charger coolant was not working...so it wouldn't surprise me if you had issues....the damn super charger was getting so hot because you had no coolant running to it, there were at least 20 wires that were shorting out and bare....the list goes on. I have talked to so many people that asking me about the boat and tell me about pulling you out from breaking down and how you seemed to treat the boat, there is a difference in running one hard knowing the limits and abusing it. I don't know for a fact because I wasn't there but the evidence was in the condition of the boat when I got it. I have fixed most of the issues but I still want to rewire the entire boat because it still has some hack job in it but I have rewired the entire center console and replace all the shorted wires for now until I decide what to do.
Last edited by Blown on Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by digginfool » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:13 pm

JB550 wrote:
Waterthunder wrote:You know what you all need is a 1000hp twin turbo, supercharged LS with a counter rotator.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Funny dave. So many these days feel like they gotta have 700 plus hp to run a little dry ground. I'll take my little ecoturd and go places those big barges can't any day.
Let's see how far your Ecoturd goes pushing a 15 foot Diamondback with aluminum oval tube rigging, seating for 7 (which are almost always full, if not 4 - 5 of them are), a cooler and an extra can of gas. Speaking of gas, a full 40 gallon tank to go along with it. I'd wager my boat weighs well over 2,500 lbs (probably closer to 3,000 than not) when I'm out running. It's not your little 12 ft fiberglass rig with DOM rigging and just you on board. That boat suits your purposes, this one suits mine. You don't need anything more than you've got? Good for you. You figure out what it takes to move a boat the size of mine on dry ground. I can tell you this; when I'm calculating pullback forces for the directional bores we do (HDPE pipe), the value we use for the coefficient of friction of the pipe on the ground is .4. The UHDPE that is used for polymer on the bottom of the boat is most likely not much better. That means, if my boat weighs 3,000 lbs, the dynamic drag force is 1,200 lbs. Static drag coefficient can reach .8, meaning to get the boat moving, it could take as much as 2,400 lbs of force. How much horsepower does it take to make over 1,200 pounds of thrust, let alone the momentary >2,400 pounds of thrust it would take to get it moving? This doesn't even account for the 'wedge' that forms around a boat while it sits on soft ground. Adding moisture does reduce these values to around .25 and .6 respectively but you are still talking a considerable amount of thrust to overcome the drag, let alone accelerate the boat (1,200 pounds would only keep you moving at whatever speed you were going when you reduced thrust to 1,200 lbs and 2,400 pounds of thrust would not get you moving; it would take more than that because that is the amount of force required to overcome the stiction). That is why big, heavy ride boats need the HP. Now you just take your little 900 lb rig to the back of the classroom and put your dunce cap on.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Blown » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:27 pm

digginfool wrote:
JB550 wrote:
Waterthunder wrote:You know what you all need is a 1000hp twin turbo, supercharged LS with a counter rotator.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Funny dave. So many these days feel like they gotta have 700 plus hp to run a little dry ground. I'll take my little ecoturd and go places those big barges can't any day.
Let's see how far your Ecoturd goes pushing a 15 foot Diamondback with aluminum oval tube rigging, seating for 7 (which are almost always full, if not 4 - 5 of them are), a cooler and an extra can of gas. Speaking of gas, a full 40 gallon tank to go along with it. I'd wager my boat weighs well over 2,500 lbs (probably closer to 3,000 than not) when I'm out running. It's not your little 12 ft fiberglass rig with DOM rigging and just you on board. That boat suits your purposes, this one suits mine. You don't need anything more than you've got? Good for you. You figure out what it takes to move a boat the size of mine on dry ground. I can tell you this; when I'm calculating pullback forces for the directional bores we do (HDPE pipe), the value we use for the coefficient of friction of the pipe on the ground is .4. The UHDPE that is used for polymer on the bottom of the boat is most likely not much better. That means, if my boat weighs 3,000 lbs, the dynamic drag force is 1,200 lbs. Static drag coefficient can reach .8, meaning to get the boat moving, it could take as much as 2,400 lbs of force. How much horsepower does it take to make over 1,200 pounds of thrust, let alone the momentary >2,400 pounds of thrust it would take to get it moving? This doesn't even account for the 'wedge' that forms around a boat while it sits on soft ground. Adding moisture does reduce these values to around .25 and .6 respectively but you are still talking a considerable amount of thrust to overcome the drag, let alone accelerate the boat (1,200 pounds would only keep you moving at whatever speed you were going when you reduced thrust to 1,200 lbs and 2,400 pounds of thrust would not get you moving; it would take more than that because that is the amount of force required to overcome the stiction). That is why big, heavy ride boats need the HP. Now you just take your little 900 lb rig to the back of the classroom and put your dunce cap on.

You should go scale your boat....mine weighs 3525 3/4 tank=30 gal. and nobody on it except my gear and loaded coolers.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Tony480 » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:31 pm

Didn't you have one of those bad ass high dollar blower motors on another boat you purchased general1eye? How'd it do? I bet that new waterthunder 418 on your Hamant hasn't gave you a bit of trouble

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by getchasumairboats » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:34 pm

Blown I know your boat is heavy ...we had to drag it of the island in belle glade after they broke down and left it there for 2 or 3 days.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Blown » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:56 pm

getchasumairboats wrote:Blown I know your boat is heavy ...we had to drag it of the island in belle glade after they broke down and left it there for 2 or 3 days.

LOL I have heard too many stories of people dragging that boat in, I haven't had an issue since I been working on it, a full year on it now and only one time I had an issue was when I hit a large wake and the boat died.....lost the ground but found it after a few hours and ran like a champ.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by getchasumairboats » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:16 pm

They broke down and left it for a couple of days. Me and my buddy drove 2 hours 1 way to meet up with farm boy and help get the owners boat back to the water. We had to hook 2 boats together just to pull it through the prior grass and mud trail. I am not sure who owned the boat he wasn't there the day we pulled it out. He did have 2 buddies show up . One was still drunk from the night before and was useless the other carried on about a bad back. I did finally get a thank you call from the owner about 3 or 4 days later... The good part is we got to hang out with a buddy that lived down there and met a couple others.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by general1eye » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:24 pm

The first motor that came on the Diamondback was a brand new PCM LSA with 20 hours and it was rigged out by diamondback. Nothing but problems. Keep in mind. Brand new motor from Diamondback. I guess I was too rough on it when it has a handicapped rpm from the manufacturer

Next motor was a 427 with a 2.8 liter kenn belle supercharger. Brand new motor-27k and 5k that was quoted at 3700 for the install. Again, issue after issue. In fact, the motor had to be detuned to even run right. It has nothing to do with me or how I drive a boat.

The third motor, a marine power LSA was sent to us as a temporary motor. It was a hack job for sure on the install. Didn't have any more money to throw at it.

Now I have a N/A WT 418 that has run perfectly for 130 hours and being that it is on a smaller boat it runs perfect.

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by getchasumairboats » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:32 pm

Here is a pic from that day
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by 540 mountain motor » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:42 pm

Different strokes. makes the whole thing fun reading what someone else is doing. Man, I like horse power. Especially the way big horsepower sounds. When you hear it, you just don't forget it. Yup, I agree Chris!!, :D
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Blown » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:42 pm

getchasumairboats wrote:Here is a pic from that day

LOL I have seen that pic before, thats shitty the owner didn't show and took days to thank you....people are pure crap these days I just don't understand.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Blown » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:49 pm

general1eye wrote:The first motor that came on the Diamondback was a brand new PCM LSA with 20 hours and it was rigged out by diamondback. Nothing but problems. Keep in mind. Brand new motor from Diamondback. I guess I was too rough on it when it has a handicapped rpm from the manufacturer

Next motor was a 427 with a 2.8 liter kenn belle supercharger. Brand new motor-27k and 5k that was quoted at 3700 for the install. Again, issue after issue. In fact, the motor had to be detuned to even run right. It has nothing to do with me or how I drive a boat.

The third motor, a marine power LSA was sent to us as a temporary motor. It was a hack job for sure on the install. Didn't have any more money to throw at it.

Now I have a N/A WT 418 that has run perfectly for 130 hours and being that it is on a smaller boat it runs perfect.
The KB was a bad choice never seen anyone happy with them in a car, too much heat produced, make good power but suffers badly from high IAT.

I thought you ordered a new Dyna Marine, someone said you have it on a Hamant now is that right? I knew you had an issue with the new DM think your Ken Bell engine had issue and then it sunk on the way in being towed? but did you get rid of it?
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by digginfool » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:55 pm

Blown wrote:
digginfool wrote:
JB550 wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Funny dave. So many these days feel like they gotta have 700 plus hp to run a little dry ground. I'll take my little ecoturd and go places those big barges can't any day.
Let's see how far your Ecoturd goes pushing a 15 foot Diamondback with aluminum oval tube rigging, seating for 7 (which are almost always full, if not 4 - 5 of them are), a cooler and an extra can of gas. Speaking of gas, a full 40 gallon tank to go along with it. I'd wager my boat weighs well over 2,500 lbs (probably closer to 3,000 than not) when I'm out running. It's not your little 12 ft fiberglass rig with DOM rigging and just you on board. That boat suits your purposes, this one suits mine. You don't need anything more than you've got? Good for you. You figure out what it takes to move a boat the size of mine on dry ground. I can tell you this; when I'm calculating pullback forces for the directional bores we do (HDPE pipe), the value we use for the coefficient of friction of the pipe on the ground is .4. The UHDPE that is used for polymer on the bottom of the boat is most likely not much better. That means, if my boat weighs 3,000 lbs, the dynamic drag force is 1,200 lbs. Static drag coefficient can reach .8, meaning to get the boat moving, it could take as much as 2,400 lbs of force. How much horsepower does it take to make over 1,200 pounds of thrust, let alone the momentary >2,400 pounds of thrust it would take to get it moving? This doesn't even account for the 'wedge' that forms around a boat while it sits on soft ground. Adding moisture does reduce these values to around .25 and .6 respectively but you are still talking a considerable amount of thrust to overcome the drag, let alone accelerate the boat (1,200 pounds would only keep you moving at whatever speed you were going when you reduced thrust to 1,200 lbs and 2,400 pounds of thrust would not get you moving; it would take more than that because that is the amount of force required to overcome the stiction). That is why big, heavy ride boats need the HP. Now you just take your little 900 lb rig to the back of the classroom and put your dunce cap on.

You should go scale your boat....mine weighs 3525 3/4 tank=30 gal. and nobody on it except my gear and loaded coolers.
You're probably right. I was being conservative.
Last edited by digginfool on Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Blown » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:03 pm

Thought I would throw this in there today.... I wasn't going to stir the pot with the BBC folks but oh well.

This weekend at the sand bar me and a friend of mine both had the water come out from under us at the bar and normally we get right off.. welll not this day is was bad had some good suction on both boats. Both boats are similar and within 200lbs of each other, his set up is BBC 540 with blower (7psi) (750HP) 4 super wides and turns 5200 rpm and my boat LSA (12 psi) (685-700 HP) 2.52 16 sabers 5950 RPM. His boat didn't come off and blew it up trying, mine came off but took 3 tries at 20-30 seconds each at WOT.
LSA 1 ....BBC 0
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by general1eye » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:26 pm

Well no one forced you to buy the boat and last time I checked, you bought the boat from Dynamarine, not me and the motor that came on it was Dynamarine's Marine power LSA, so if you have a problem, take it up with them and yes, the crappy KB SC motor blew up with the Dynamarine rep driving the boat on its maiden voyage after a fresh rebuild from the piece of crap blowing up the first time on the Diamondback. And the boat was stuck at belle glade because the Belt drive adapter came apart because we didnt realize that the back of the belt housing or the motor had to be shaved down for the housing to sit flush. We couldnt tell because of the birds nest of wires on the back of the marine power.

This forum was about which motor you would rather have and I have had both and then you have to get personal when someone is pointing out facts.

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Blown » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:52 pm

general1eye wrote:Well no one forced you to buy the boat and last time I checked, you bought the boat from Dynamarine, not me and the motor that came on it was Dynamarine's Marine power LSA, so if you have a problem, take it up with them and yes, the crappy KB SC motor blew up with the Dynamarine rep driving the boat on its maiden voyage after a fresh rebuild from the piece of crap blowing up the first time on the Diamondback. And the boat was stuck at belle glade because the Belt drive adapter came apart because we didnt realize that the back of the belt housing or the motor had to be shaved down for the housing to sit flush. We couldnt tell because of the birds nest of wires on the back of the marine power.

This forum was about which motor you would rather have and I have had both and then you have to get personal when someone is pointing out facts.
I didn't and don't have an issue with the boat I bought, I got it for well under what its worth, so need need for me to take up anything with DM, they are a stand up company and couldn't ask for more from them and me being a knowledgeable person mechanically I saw an opportunity to get a boat I could fix with just some time and very little money. It wasn't personal, I just see these motors and others getting run down by people who don't know shit and write out checks and run them until they quit and then say they won't last and are junk.
When running boost and/or high HP you need to have an understanding of whats going on and when things feel off something is wrong an dyou need to stop, you need all the proper gauges to provide you with the information that is going on in the engine and unstand what they mean and the consequences if ignored.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Blown » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:01 pm

general1eye wrote:Well no one forced you to buy the boat and last time I checked, you bought the boat from Dynamarine, not me and the motor that came on it was Dynamarine's Marine power LSA, so if you have a problem, take it up with them and yes, the crappy KB SC motor blew up with the Dynamarine rep driving the boat on its maiden voyage after a fresh rebuild from the piece of crap blowing up the first time on the Diamondback. And the boat was stuck at belle glade because the Belt drive adapter came apart because we didnt realize that the back of the belt housing or the motor had to be shaved down for the housing to sit flush. We couldnt tell because of the birds nest of wires on the back of the marine power.

This forum was about which motor you would rather have and I have had both and then you have to get personal when someone is pointing out facts.
I was just pointing out the FACT that you were running engines with liquid cooled blowers and not circulating liquid through them LOL...that dosen't work they create enough heat when cooled properly, they will kill engines if not cooled.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by general1eye » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:06 pm

the motor that was on the DB when you purchased it was not my motor. Not sure what part of that you don't understand. The motors that I had issue with are not the motor you are running.

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Blown » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:14 pm

general1eye wrote:the motor that was on the DB when you purchased it was not my motor. Not sure what part of that you don't understand. The motors that I had issue with are not the motor you are running.

I know that...never even thought it was,
That is what I mean you don't even know what its about, the pump isn't on the engine, it is separate and all 3 of your engines I am sure were using the same pump because it wasn't new.. The pump is mounted remotely and supplies water to the blower to cool across the internal cooler inside the blower.Its fine to just admit that you are not a mechanic and don't know about these things, but don't try to act like you do when you really don't
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by general1eye » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:32 pm

Ya no crap. Its mounted to the motor stand and its bottom of the line piece of crap that comes on the LSA like alot of the other parts. It could have very easily stopped working during the time it sat before you took possession. I really don't care about getting into a pissing match with you. You are obviously the master tuner that knows it all. I have a boat and motor that has not given me any problems and will take me a lot of places that I could not go before. I wish you all nothing but the best.

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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by Blown » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:38 pm

general1eye wrote:Ya no crap. Its mounted to the motor stand and its bottom of the line piece of crap that comes on the LSA like alot of the other parts. It could have very easily stopped working during the time it sat before you took possession. I really don't care about getting into a pissing match with you. You are obviously the master tuner that knows it all. I have a boat and motor that has not given me any problems and will take me a lot of places that I could not go before. I wish you all nothing but the best.
I'm no master anything, but I do my own work when I can, I do my best to listen and learn from those that know more than I do. I can assure you there is nothing junk on an LSA, a couple things to do for improvements but all in all a great platform up to around 750hp, at that point the blower is running hard but 750hp is plenty for most.
Sucks you had bad experiences with blown engines, but trust me, its not the engine its all about who set them up and the understanding of the limits and paying attention to gauges. Glad your N/A engine is making you happy.
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Re: 556hp LSA vs. 600hp 418 Water Thunder

Post by general1eye » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:52 pm

well the first LSA had to get a new ignition under warranty, a new gas pedal under warranty because the power would just come and go intermittently, new alternator under warranty and not only that the alternator was some oddball one that no one carried in stock, a new fuel pump and 2 new S/C cooling pumps under warranty. The big blower motor came with a 1 year warranty and had the Holley system that supposedly hones in the tune for you. Still blew up twice. I'm sure i'm the exception and not the rule, but I do know that a blower motor has more stuff that goes wrong and you are pushing the motor more towards its limits. After driving a lot of boats, I think a car motor boat around 14 X 8 or even a little smaller with a N/A motor is a great all around combo.

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