Car motor vs Aircraft it's all good

Automotive powered airboat discussion.
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MikeP
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Post by MikeP »

Hey Rich, can you imagine how many coolers of beer you can put in a 18footer?

cont520
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Post by cont520 »

I dont know about the originals ,but I do know now and nothing runs better and cooler than a A/c motor . Now water builds a great running car motor that I am sure you are gonna pay good money for dont know how much money ,but I still gonna go with my aircraft powered airboat .I have ran a couple car motors that are stock and they are no comparison to a stock a/c 4 cyl.
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crowhater
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Post by crowhater »

Bottom line we are all a bunch of hard working guys who try hard to better are rigs all the time. You can't help but get your neck hair up if you think someone is talking bad about your rig. You spend hundreds of hours bleeding and digging grinding chucks out of your eyes and when you are done you feel like you built the best rig ever. This is what I started with a little over a year ago and we did it working nights and weekeends and finished in about 3 months including a new trailer.

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Post by dantheairboatman »

I have owned both race and ride. I think a lot of c/m are built on the heavy side. Take the same a/c boat and put a 383 and superwide and gear box on it and it will trot all over the place. My 470 with a q series would get stuck but fun to drive! My c/m boat (not heavy) never got stuck.Pulled a 20ft deck over off of dry land on orange lake way up behind McCormick island when a lot of people couldn't even make it up in there to get him. never ran hot. A/C are very reliable in my limited experience! All about set up. Had to stick up for c/m b/c i had one that would. Bruce Kaye told me along time ago it takes a stout 350 with g/b to run with a 540.That is why he built the gearbox to make up for the huge handicap c/m have. They told him he was crazy that he could never make one run with the 540's. He didn't do to bad. Seems like if what ever you drive has a higher thrust to weight ratio that is what makes it happen IMO I love airboats and drive a cont. as much as my c/m :oops:
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Des Moines Boater
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Post by Des Moines Boater »

Joe, I didn't explain myself very well. What I meant is there are 60 year old aircraft engines on airboats but no 30 year old car motors on airboats. I know there are plenty in old cars because that is what they were designed for.

For those that think Rolls Royce put car engines in airplanes I hate to burst your bubble but that just isn't true. The Rolls Royce Merlin and other engines used in planes were purpose built for aircraft. Even though Ford and other car makers built Pratt & Whitney R-1830-33 Twin Wasp engines for the B-24, they didn't use their car engines. Heck even tanks used aircraft engines before they went to diesels.

After seeing the size of your boat Crowhater, no doubt it needs a big car motor. You will get the power, just remember that it isn't going to be a reliable as an aircraft engine. You have to use what you need though.

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John C
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Post by John C »

Des, That's true crowhater is running what he needs to push his boat. I carry a lot a weight in mine as well during hunting season. I also run a Caddy motor. Most of the Caddys out there are 30+ years old. Mine is a 1975, The good ones are the old ones. they have been around for a while. This is also true with the Olds motors and the guys that run 460 fords. Two different animals. The old big block carmotors are good for larger boats, they can not compete with small A/C boats zipping around the marsh. But an A/C motor is not going to get the job done on a big boat that has to carry a load.

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hmgm123
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Post by hmgm123 »

John C wrote:Des, That's true crowhater is running what he needs to push his boat. I carry a lot a weight in mine as well during hunting season. I also run a Caddy motor. Most of the Caddys out there are 30+ years old. Mine is a 1975, The good ones are the old ones. they have been around for a while. This is also true with the Olds motors and the guys that run 460 fords. Two different animals. The old big block carmotors are good for larger boats, they can not compete with small A/C boats zipping around the marsh. But an A/C motor is not going to get the job done on a big boat that has to carry a load.


My AC motor will get the job done on a large boat probably as good as yours or even better. :D

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Post by Joe »

Des,that 37 year old motor is on my boat,along with a gear box and 3 blade prop. Or how about these 500 caddy`s,they quit making them in what,75 or 76? Sure the ones from potter are purpose built,but how many arn`t,alot.And yes the model t motor was used in planes,but this was before WW1 I do beleive.?One of you airplane buffs help me out.

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Geneva0550
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Post by Geneva0550 »

How about this A/C motor for an airbarge. :D supercharged and uses ethylene glycol!
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Des Moines Boater
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Post by Des Moines Boater »

Joe, that is good to hear. The model T engine was used in experimental aircraft but the crankshaft was like a hairpin and didn't do very well. Bernard Pietenpol came up with the first successful experimental home built using the Model-A engine on his Aircamper in 1929. The two seat Pietenpol. I built one of those and flew it with a Continental A-65 aircraft engine. A friend of mine used the Model-A engine in his but it didn't fly much but a lot of them out there. His last one he built used a Corvair engine.

I have friends who used aluminum Buick engines on a Stitts Playmate and one on a Rans RV-6. They both flew but were not very successful and finally converted to aircraft engines.

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John C
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Post by John C »

hmgm123, Don't, take it the wrong way. I am not trying to put down A/C motors in any way. I'm just saying that they are two different animals. Your A/C motor may very well get the job done. I do not know what your running. And I am certainly not trying to get into a mine is better than yours thing here. I'm just saying that on most big boats like crowhaters you always see them set up with carmotors. look at all the bow fishing boats that Faron has been putting out lately. there 18 & 20 footers, carring multiple generators and lots of lights. Just trying to point out that there are good applications for both power plants. Me and a buddy of mine Had identical boats built by the same boat builder. his came out of the mold right after mine did. His is powered by a 260hp 0540, mine is powered by a 500 Caddy/ gearbox both boats are 15x8 with slick bottom. his boat runs great light. when we load them both up to go duck hunting, 4guys, decoys, guns, cooler,etc. there is no comparison. the difference is night and day when loaded. He just can not stay with me wet or dry. Now with one person in the boat its a different story. I can not stay with him making sharp turns running myrtles, his boat handles better than mine did. As I said before It all depends on what you want your boat to do best.
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Post by Sniper »

Well you guys have had a lot of fun with this so I tell you what my LS6 boat will do it never ever runs over 155 engine temp even running dry ground with 5 people in the boat on a 100 degree day and as far as parts go the LS motors are so prevalent now all the auto parts stores now stock what ever you need and from what I have seen by the performance and weight of my engine being lighter than most 6 cylinder A/C motors I could hardly put the LS series engine in the same class with other car motors they are in a class of there own so far my boat has gone any where I have wanted to go and done it effortlessly I ran miles and miles of dry ground at lake Okeechobee with 4 people in the boat at half throttle so dry ground is not an issue and with Thunder in the boat with me I stopped on a black mud Barr and the took off again to his surprise no problem so from what I have seen so far car motors are one thing WaterThunder LS motors are a whole nuther animal
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lil_armond
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Post by lil_armond »

Hmgh123,

My AC motor will get the job done on a large boat probably as good as yours or even better.



No offense, and I really mean it but you probably run a 540, 520, or 550 and that's great but I really have to disagree about your statement above. never on your best day could you run any of the motors I mentioned on an 18-20 rig pound ground and keep up with lets say one of Faron's boats of the same size with a GM Levitator, or 502 set up. If it could you would see the hard core seismic and survey boats running them, they just don't cut the mustard in that type of work environment.

Remember no offense, just stating the obvious from a big rig stand point and the facts don't lie.
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Airjack
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Post by Airjack »

From what I seen last week, Hmgm123 has no motor on his boat :lol: Seen him towing it down the road with no engine.
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grant
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Post by grant »

Probably still out do one of them air barges :D
Bound to run quieter and burn less gas :D
I am sure it will take less people to get it unstuck too :D

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Des Moines Boater
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Post by Des Moines Boater »

Sometimes I even miss my little 10 foot Gilileo with the O-290. I was running the river one day with it and a nut came off my steering control and I found myself doing at least a 360 degree turn and 10 feet away from the water on a sand bar. It was easy to get it back to the water by myself because it was so light. A couple of weeks ago I had a control come apart on my 13 foot Laser and I ended up on the exact same sand bar. I'm just glad I didn't have to push the new boat back to the water. It's heavy, but then again that GPU 220 has enough power that I don't have to push anymore. I'm glad the controls broke near sand bars and not next to big trees.

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crowhater
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Post by crowhater »

lil_armond wrote:Hmgh123,

My AC motor will get the job done on a large boat probably as good as yours or even better.



No offense, and I really mean it but you probably run a 540, 520, or 550 and that's great but I really have to disagree about your statement above. never on your best day could you run any of the motors I mentioned on an 18-20 rig pound ground and keep up with lets say one of Faron's boats of the same size with a GM Levitator, or 502 set up. If it could you would see the hard core seismic and survey boats running them, they just don't cut the mustard in that type of work environment.

Remember no offense, just stating the obvious from a big rig stand point and the facts don't lie.




Once we make a video I think people will understand. I will have to bring my boat to your house so we can run some of that cane forest that is so thick a hog could not move through it.
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aircraft vs. carmotor

Post by basketcase0302 »

It's all good, there I said it so I'm good to go.
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Man! Look at all that water!
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airboat4fun
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Post by airboat4fun »

E-Z boys, don't get yer blood pressure up. just take one of them little pills and relax.
we all get jammed up every once in a while.

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it ain't just you aircraft guys that get stuck...

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then there's the new guy, he's easy to spot...
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They ALL get stuck somewhere, if not then you ain't playing hard enough-go find somewhere to stick it.
I know from experience, I would rather help push a 4 cyl aircraft powered deckover than a Chevy Big Block on a Glass hull with rodboxes and walkarounds.

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plumcrazy
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Post by plumcrazy »

ive nerver been stuck , been wrecked, been upsidedown , been blowed up been run over by the boat i was driving 1 second earlier ,ran em so hot the radiator hoses blew off , ive melted jugs, ran out of gas in a palmetto patch 5 miles from the water, ive run chevys , gpus, lycomings . continetals 6cyl 4 cyls . everybody knows them fellows that get stuck just dont know how to run a boat . :D :D :D :lol:

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hmgm123
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Post by hmgm123 »

lil_armond wrote:Hmgh123,

My AC motor will get the job done on a large boat probably as good as yours or even better.



No offense, and I really mean it but you probably run a 540, 520, or 550 and that's great but I really have to disagree about your statement above. never on your best day could you run any of the motors I mentioned on an 18-20 rig pound ground and keep up with lets say one of Faron's boats of the same size with a GM Levitator, or 502 set up. If it could you would see the hard core seismic and survey boats running them, they just don't cut the mustard in that type of work environment.

Remember no offense, just stating the obvious from a big rig stand point and the facts don't lie.


Listen, first off all I am trying to say is that for every car motor running, there is also an aircraft motor counter part that will run with it. I have even talked my dad into getting an automotive airboat that he loves. I have also turn other people naming one Billy Wiggins on to Waterthunder motor and Billy bought one! I think those LS-1 are the bomb. But by the same token there isn't any supreme ruler of running the hill or the water. Lil armond to answer your question. I have a supercharge upstack 0540 that has a 1:55-1 gear reduction that was swinging a 3 blade 80 falcon set at maximum pitch according to Bob Hoover of WW I need to go to a 4 blade falcon or a 3 blade super wide. Now this motor makes stock 380hp with about 600ft/lb torque by 3400rpm. And yes Air jack you did see going down the road with out the motor because the motor is getting a complete over haul by a jam up mechanic. Which should be ready this coming week. Not trying to cut down car motors just don't like people saying that car motor will go where aircraft motors wouldn't think about.

FELBER632

Re: Car motor vs Aircraft it's all good

Post by FELBER632 »

Waterthunder wrote:I by no means am bashing one or promoting the other. I just wrote this so some people may understand how I look at all this! This is from a different post but I thought some other people may want to read this! I enjoy working on and improving any engine that burn petro! I haven't built an A/C motor in a very long time but I'm building one for the wife and I'm gonna thoroughly enjoy it!


Hey Bill how is the motor running I haven't heard from you in a while. This is always good. Back to gear reduction As with everything there becomes a point of diminishing returns! Folk's this will shock ya an I hope nobody starts the A/C vs car motor lame crap and sit's down and thinks about the physics. When a very strong car motor races a strong O540 the higher horsepower car motor usually barely out run's the strong O540. However if you throw 4 people in the boat and run the hill the O540 ain't got a snowballs chance! Each motor does have an area it will out perform the other. There are many many forces involved here! Just to name a few the drag coefficient of the hull to water, water displacement, the big car motor problem is torque roll, then gear reduction inefficiency, and another big one I believe is prop tip acceleration which gear reduction happens to kill! All the answers are here and it takes along time or it least it took me 11 or so years to think I have it figured out and I doubt I have . What all the chest pounding logo bashers aka Ford vs Chevy Lycoming vs Chevy don't realize is there is no magical combination . No special motor everything run's the way it should and simple physics will allow it to. There are many reasons why a very strong A/C motor can run with a very strong car motor that makes twice the horsepower. Neither one run's any better then it should but a lot of physics become involved when using torque multiplication! I have always enjoyed how two completely different types of motors the car motor that makes much less torque that has much less cubic inches but makes twice the horsepower run's neck and neck with an A/C that is huge in cubic inches with less horsepower and all torque. These motors are fast base on two different principles but they run close enough to always be competitive with each other. In the end I have been around and worked on about evrything that can be raced and I have yet to find any motor sport that is as complex as airboat racing everything is involved and there all on curves nothing is linear. It a very tough pyhsics coarse!


Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave.......I thought we agreed we'd never go down this road again? Geesh....I know you had the best intentions when you wrote it, but yur like that kid who keeps steppin on that rake LOL

OK seriously....You know we both feel the same (Well all except the tip speed thing). And I've learned that no matter how eloquently you explain things or diplomatic you are, it will always get into the same sh!t hurlin contest amongst those who prefer favoritism rather than facts.

But here EYE am postin on the thread so who's the real dumbass? HA!

Most people know I specialize in car engines, but those who really know me, know I build and appreciate anything mechanical, especially if it has pistons and makes big explosions!
I appreciate A/C engines and actually prefer them for a sportsman boat for it's simplicity, and also know they're very competitive due to the same reason.
I also consider AIRCRAFT engines something ABSOLUTELY different than airboat A/C guys do. When I think of piston powered A/C I think Allison, or Merlins....Not 0540 Angle Valves. Face it....Both powerplants in use in airboats are measly little workhorses for the average Joe. An LS1 is still only under 400 CID in most cases and designed to move a ~3500# vehicle, and an 0540 is designed to move a little private aircraft.....I doubt a 346" LS1 is gonna haul 20,000 pounds of weighted trailer up a steep grade and I damn sure know we'd be speakin German or Japanese now if P-51s and Corsairs had 0540s in em!

So NOW...If the big brag is aircraft.....What about an Allison or a Rolls Royce Merlin? Last I checked they were water cooled, "V" designs that were Centrifugal supercharged and gear-reducted and in some cases Counter Rotator....I'd like to see that airboat! Maybe call it a barge?! LOL..Well of course we could use a R-2800 which is aircooled and much more powerfull, but would require an oil-tanker to keep it from torque rolling. Face it.....My 1970 Chevy truck has the original 300+K mile 350 in it...It's 38 years old and starts right up even when I've let it sit for months on end...But ya know why? Cuz it's STOCK and used where it was designed for and intended to do!

I don't care what it is....If I build a 1600HP big block out of 600 cubic inches that's 2.66HP per cube! I've read here the point that car engines get tore down all the time in drag cars.....Umm yeah...When they make STUPID amounts of power! I built a 2800HP 509CID (5.5HP/CID) Twin Turbocharged big block almost 3 years ago and hasn't missed a race.....It's blown 2 head gaskets, ate 3 thrust bearings due to torque converter heat, and bent all the valves cuz it shredded a timing belt with it's .800+ lift camshaft. Yeah...I feel so sad it's not reliable. If you take a A/C motor and make 2.66HP (nevermind 5.5) per cube, come braggin to me about reliability.

Now about going to extremes about weight reduction? A bone stock LS engine weighs ~400 pounds fully dressed straight out of a 1998 Camaro...If you choose not to buy one, oh well....Of course it ain't gonna run like what Dave builds or myself, but still run better than damn near any other car motor, and YES the parts are sinfully cheap and accesible...So no excuses there....

OK...I've talked it up about car motors cuz it seems the Pro-AC thing has been pretty heavy. On the same token....If I'm miles out and wanna get back....I'd prefer to not worry about a blown hose, a faulty high pressure EFI pump, a harmonic balancer not flingin off into my ass, only 1 spark plug per hole, a rig that's too heavy for two men to not be able to unstick or need a giant Big Block boat to tow back in, and having the option to prop-start it is pretty appealing too.. In that case I prefer the simplicity of the Volkswagen and THAT my friends is (I mean this as a compliment) the common "aircraft" engine used in airboats. Simple, relatively inexpensive, crude and efficient...And that earns BIG kudos...But in my eyes...It is what it is.

We all like what we like, and for me it's everything that is used in it's proper place/function. There are a LOT of uses for an airboat and even more people's preferences...So do what ya want, and be happy....Just PLEASE save the "What's better BS for someone stupid enough to believe you, cuz.....When I think aircraft I think Jet or turbine, and for the sake of nostalgia? Allisons and Merlins....NOT an aircooled pancake 6...Even if it's angle valve and injected....But then again try unstickin an Allison power boat! LOL

So please..Pretty please.....Drop the AC car motor thing....Anyone got any bets? ROFLMAO!

Felber

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hmgm123
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Post by hmgm123 »

I am all for that. :D Truth be told my next motor will be an all aluminum V8, I like the idea behind the LS-2, I think they make one hell of a motor. :twisted:

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Des Moines Boater
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Post by Des Moines Boater »

If we're getting into Merlin and Allison engines, then I want a General Electric F-110. No torque roll and you can tap the burner if you get stuck. Fuel consumption would be pretty high. It's been a few years since I flew with one of those, but I know it will go where no airboat can go.

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Post by OVER BUDGET »

Can you run a car motor with a dead batteries?Will it hand crank?When you drop a cylinder do you have to tear the whole motor down?

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