408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

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hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:20 pm

The big brown truck brought my new cylinder heads today! Edlebrock E-street 60cc chamber heads. 170cc intake runners with 2.02 / 1.60 valves. Hoping those runners are small enough to keep the velocity up to make the most power. Should be decking the block on Friday. Ironically this is the first set of aluminum heads I have ever bought for myself and it's for my airboat lol. They sure are purdy right out of the box. Damn reasonable at $975 a pair!
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02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:35 pm

I was able to get quite a bit done today. Checked the line bore, 2 to 2.5 thousandths on each main. Just bumped it in the hone to clean the bores. Mocked up the crank, rod and pistons to check the deck height. 020 was able to come off making the piston damn near at zero deck. .042 head gasket ought to give en9room for squeeze. Final wash, cam bearings and freeze plugs installed. Next to balance the crank and the short block can be assembled. We're about half way there boys! Can't wait to see what she will do.
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02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

SWAMPHUNTER45
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby SWAMPHUNTER45 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:16 pm

Awesome to hear the progress

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:55 pm

So we broke out the calculator today to figure out compression ratio of this monster! Here's the breakdown.

Bore : 4.030
Stroke : 4.000
Piston cc : 24cc
Head Gasket dia. : 4.100
Head Gasket compressed thickness : .041
Head Chamber cc : 60cc
Piston to deck height : .010

Doing the math with these numbers brings it to 9.9 to 1

Perfect pump gas motor.

Now what's even more exciting is I got out the shipping scale and got a few weights. My current setup is a late model 5.0 with iron heads.
We had a fresh set of Windsor heads loaded ready to go out today, so on the scale they went along with the new Edelbrocks.
Iron were 50 lbs. and Edelbrocks are 30 lbs. so I'm saving 40 lbs. combined there. We also have another late model 5.0 block bare with main caps so I weighed that and the 351 block with it's caps. 5.0 was 123 lbs. and 351 was 162 lbs. which is 39 lbs. heavier. So right now I've got a 1 lb advantage. LOL Obviously the rotating assembly is where I'm gonna gain the most weight but hopefully it's less than 20/30 lbs. overall. YAY :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Spoke with Bullet Cams in Mississippi about a custom ground cam and it seems them boys know there airboat shitz. Going with a solid flat tappet cam. They are emailing me the specs as we speak!
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

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Deano
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby Deano » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:11 am

hdsadey wrote:Spoke with Bullet Cams in Mississippi about a custom ground cam and it seems them boys know there airboat shitz.

:thumbleft: On Bullet Cams :thumbright: Not only do those boys know their shitz, but in a Cadillac case, they don't really cost any more custom ground than to buy somebody else's off the shelf, might be close if you're lucky, recommendation.

Real cool on the weight thing; this is always a question after the fact, but frequently goes unanswered.
You are to be commended for how you are documenting your build. Keep up the good work! :salute:
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but it is not the path to knowledge; it has no place in the endeavor of science."
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hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:28 am

Yes sir! Thanks Deano. I have certainly fallen down the rabbit hole on this one! I have found the same thing as far as information lacking so that's why I'm taking the opportunity to record it as I go. Hopefully it will benefit others as well in the future. I will get a total weight of the 408 and my current 302 when the time comes.
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

flcracker9
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby flcracker9 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:29 pm

Glad to see the build coming along. Your 408 will come in weighing less than my Son's iron head 383, and you'll have more torque also. Can't wait until you finish. I know how my Son's boat goes with the same hull as yours, no reason your boat won't perform better than ours, which we are happy with. Keep the pics coming! Where do you normally ride?
12' Open Palm Beach, IO-0470-L 260hp, 72" NGQ

Hotdog
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby Hotdog » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:28 pm

My engine builder has custom grinds from Bullet and they are usually right on the money

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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby Hotdog » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:29 pm

That's what I also have in my boat 434ci Chevy.

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:58 pm

Bullet cam ordered! Advertised 253/253, duration at .050 is 224/224, lift is .504 with 1.6 rockers and in at 106 with 4 degrees advanced built in for 102.Tim from Bullet says it'll be a stump puller! Also harmonic balancer, oil pump, timing chain, and flexplate ordered. Soon as the balancer and plate get here we can balance the rotating assembly. Block is in primer.

Hotdog I've heard nothing but good about Bullet. My boss has an account there as well because of their knowledge, quality and willingness to get it right not get it off the shelf!

Cracker I can't wait! Been contemplating this build for a loooong time now. With my job at the machine shop makes more obtainable. Looking to double the power over the 5.0. We mostly ride the Peace River because it's close. When it's done I'm definitely hitting Kissimmee, never been, always been told it's the place to go.
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02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

flcracker9
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby flcracker9 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:31 am

Once it's all said and done, let me/us know when you plan to go to Kissimmee, would like to join you to see how it performs. We go there often, great place to ride. If you aren't familiar with Kissimmee and the marsh, we can show you around.
12' Open Palm Beach, IO-0470-L 260hp, 72" NGQ

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:22 pm

Absolutely gonna need a tour guide! Just a heads up though my old man's airboat etiquette is not what it should be after 5 years! Seems he has a hard time grasping the idea that there's a gigantic fan blowing the shit out of everything behind him!!!! Most of the time we keep to ourselves to avoid pissin off the entire airboat community. Might have to make him park down by the water! Lol
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

Rich Andrews
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby Rich Andrews » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:12 pm

you should get someone to work the flow in those chambers while they are not assembled..im sure if they came str8 out of a box you can benefit from an experienced cylinder head expert
I'll have my Manatee burger medium please...just say NObama

14x8 deckover FELBER 397ci.. HP ???..just stay back!!

LOHA is AHOL backwards

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:19 am

Hey Rich I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze at such low rpm running. I know I don't want to touch the intake runners, need to them small and rough to tumble the air going in to mix the fuel well. Are you referring to the combustion chamber itself?

It's got 6 coats of Duplicolor Ford Blue on it now! Balancing will be done Friday.
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02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

Rich Andrews
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby Rich Andrews » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:50 am

dont know anything about tumbling air, but anywhere air flows in our out should be smooth and blended
I'll have my Manatee burger medium please...just say NObama

14x8 deckover FELBER 397ci.. HP ???..just stay back!!

LOHA is AHOL backwards

MaxxForce
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby MaxxForce » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:48 pm

I don't know if it was mentioned in this thread if it was I missed it, but how do you plan to do you starter mount, just curious because I am planning on a Ford build in the future , when you get to that point post some pics of it.
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SWAMPHUNTER45
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby SWAMPHUNTER45 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:21 am

A few years back I went to a shop in the Tampa area owned by a fellow who built engines for all sorts of race applications. He is semi-retired now and chooses to live a private life. He had been featured in several magazines over the years such as Circle Track and Hot Rod and is a master builder. He was helping us with a set of heads and during our conversations at the flow bench discussed how he had observed CFM and horsepower gains from both the use of a certain style of carburetor spacer and finishing the intake port surface with a rough or textured finish rather than mirror polished smooth.

He said "just look at a golf ball".

We can only speculate the rough texture does two things. One is increase the cfm flow as he noted and the second is to better atomize the fuel as it travels into the combustion chamber.

Rich Andrews
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby Rich Andrews » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:42 am

that's interesting.. but remember it all begins w a properly tuned carb. You can do all the head work you want but if its not getting the right air fuel combo your pissin away good money
I'll have my Manatee burger medium please...just say NObama

14x8 deckover FELBER 397ci.. HP ???..just stay back!!

LOHA is AHOL backwards

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:51 am

Hey Maxx. I had to figure it out on my own since no one makes mounts. Here's what I did. I took standard Ford engine mounts up front and built posts to them. In the rear I took a dust plate that gets sandwiched between the block and trans used and it as a template. 1/4 mild steel, oxy-acetylene torch cut the rough shape outside and starter + crank holes. Used a carbide burr in a die grinder to take off the remaining material. Drilled holes for block and starter. Welded angle on bottom to rest on rubber mounts. Solid with little vibration, no starter grind. The die grinding took forever because I wanted to be precise especially for the statrer.
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Last edited by hdsadey on Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:00 am

I've read several articles on porting BY NO MEANS AN EXPERT!!! The all said intake ports need some type of texture to help atomize the fuel. Mirror smooth will produce fuel droplets on the walls because there is no turbulence. Now the did say the the exhaust can benefit from a smoother surface due to the fact that the quicker the cylinder is scavenged the more fresh air can be obtained. That's all I know! I run a aftermarket FiTech EFI so tuning is easy peasy. Well it's my day off and I'm headed to work to balance my crank, later!
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

fl cracker
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby fl cracker » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:18 am

Any particular reason for not going with some type of reduction? Just seems like a lot of work
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hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:36 am

Would I'm an idiot be a correct answer?

$$$$ don't have that kind of cash. Motor, reduction, prop and the limited space on my boat. Would have to rebuild the whole rigging. I like the simplicity of direct drive. Wanted to see if it was feasible to make lots of power with a Windsor. Maybe stupidity to try and reinvent the wheel but that's how I roll LOL. I like to be different! I'm also the guy that HATES to see a small block Chevy in every street rod built just because it's easy.
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

flcracker9
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby flcracker9 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:21 pm

hdsadey wrote:I've read several articles on porting BY NO MEANS AN EXPERT!!! The all said intake ports need some type of texture to help atomize the fuel. Mirror smooth will produce fuel droplets on the walls because there is no turbulence. Now the did say the the exhaust can benefit from a smoother surface due to the fact that the quicker the cylinder is scavenged the more fresh air can be obtained. That's all I know! I run a aftermarket FiTech EFI so tuning is easy peasy. Well it's my day off and I'm headed to work to balance my crank, later!



I agree with this. textured surface in the intake runners, and you can polish the exhausts ports all you want. In your case, I don't think you would benefit seeing the low rpm you will be running.
12' Open Palm Beach, IO-0470-L 260hp, 72" NGQ

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:07 pm

Balancing has been accomplished! It was so far out I had to take material off the counterweights on the balancer and flexplate. Chucked them up in the Bridgeport with an endmill. Got the weight down from over a 100 grams to under an gram on the front and much less on the rear. If you look at the chart you can see how much force is being thrown around when out of balance. Over 200 lbs. at 3000 rpm on the front of the crank before weight was removed! Now it's a 1.25 lbs. BIG DIFFERENCE!

BTW Bullet cams called, my bumpstick is on it's way! :cheers: :toothy7:
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20180921_103817.jpg
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

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Slidin Gator
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby Slidin Gator » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:44 pm

hdsadey wrote:I know I don't want to touch the intake runners, need to them small and rough to tumble the air going in to mix the fuel well.

Rich Andrews wrote:dont know anything about tumbling air, but anywhere air flows in our out should be smooth and blended

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:He was helping us with a set of heads and during our conversations at the flow bench discussed how he had observed CFM and horsepower gains from both the use of a certain style of carburetor spacer and finishing the intake port surface with a rough or textured finish rather than mirror polished smooth.

He said "just look at a golf ball".

We can only speculate the rough texture does two things. One is increase the cfm flow as he noted and the second is to better atomize the fuel as it travels into the combustion chamber.


Everyone is right here!

Laminar flow occurs at lower velocity (read as bigger ports or lower flow) and smooth walls. In this condition the air touching the walls is essentially stationary with highest velocity in the center of the port cross section. This creates higher pressure drop because the air has shear (side) drag from the slower air next to it. This also results in wet fuel condensing on the walls of the ports because there is little to no velocity along the walls.

A rough(er) texture (read as "As Cast") causes the air to tumble or roll along the walls, leading to lower pressure drop and better mixing of air/fuel. The best way to visualize this is the air acting as wheels or ball bearings along the walls vs. sliding along the wall. In a low RPM, direct drive application, the as cast roughness can make a significant difference. This is also why smaller port size is part of the direct drive recipe, to keep the velocity up.

The port matching that Rich refers to involves making sure the dimensions of the the intake manifold and head ports match up with the gasket cut out. This is a good move for any application and basically consists of some work with a burr grinder to taper the port edges to get a good match with the intake gasket and eliminate sharp transitions. Any sharp edge transition (larger to smaller or smaller to larger) will create flow issues that can increase pressure drop and create dead flow zones where liquid fuel accumulates.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.


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