408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

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hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by hdsadey » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:00 pm

My goal is to be able to pitch it so I don't have to spin it up high to run normal, just to break loose. Hopefully I can drop my cruise rpm down around 1800. With the 302 cruise was at 2400 deep water. The thrust bearing takes more abuse in a manual transmission in my opinion. That little 302 has about 200 hrs. on it over the last 5 years and showed no real measurable increase in thrust bearing play. Only time will tell though those Windsor are pretty damn tough.
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by JLP3314 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:19 pm

Nice build, (from a guy who bleeds Ford Blue). I always wanted to build the stroker just could never come up with the dime to do so.
I'd bet it will have one wicked torque roll off of idle if your not careful! :shock:
Don't waste your time-its the only thing you can't get back, (Cntry141IQ/John had another thousand of these before he went sliding into the sky). :-(

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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by hdsadey » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:24 pm

Sooooo I finally got everything in place and pulled it out of the shop. Dumped it off the trailer in the yard and went to tuning it. Unfortunately I can't say I'm blown away with the performance at this point! Here's what I was experiencing. With the blades pitched at 82 deg. on semi wet grass (just got done drizzling for 2 hours) I was able to break ground around 2400 rpms. It would spin up to 2900 max. Repitched them to 81, harder time breaking loose and 2700 max. Went the other way to 83, 3000 max. and better snap. I'm 220 lbs. and it's a front driver. Put the girlfriend in the back seat, extra 120 lbs and it wasn't wanting to break loose unless I stood on it with some rudder wiggle. Waterwalker Sig 72 brand new. Quite positive I double my power over the 302. Wondering if the health of the hull is giving me the issue. Old 13x7 Big O that could stand to have stringers redone, has decent poly. I have a new 12x8 Circle H on order, hoping the performance will show up there. Maybe the Sig is holding it back. Scratching my head, 8k deep in this upgrade and disappointed. Any thoughts? All would be appreciated. Thanks Daniel.
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SWAMPHUNTER45
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:23 pm

I was not a fan of the cam selection I felt it had more duration than I would have wanted,that said I'm not a Ford guy. When I saw it peaked as high as it did on the Dyno it confirmed it. I even mentioned months ago that I wondered what the numbers would have looked like with less duration in the cam. The objective is to bring max torque in early in the usable direct drive range under 3000rpm. The rpm range you need to target is 2000-3000 where it appears based on your Dyno results 3000-3600 is where your engine made its torque. That cam had your torque peaking well above 3000 and outside of your usable range in a direct drive. Based on your field data it appears to confirm this as taking pitch out and raising rpm to 3000 yielded results. Since your torque below 3000 is decreased your performance below 3000 declined. Maybe I'm wrong but I would estimate that cam has 8-10 degrees excessive duration for the application. It would be perfect for a 1.77 ratio gear drive....hint hint

There was an offer on the table to borrow a 72 inch Q it would be my advice to take that offer up and pitch at an honest 1.5 on marks and see what rpm you get. If your spinning it up to 3000 plus you know the issue is hull related. If your not making rpm then in my opinion cam or heads (intake runners) could be suspect. While the aluminum heads are "better" they may not offer low rpm velocity that is needed for a direct drive application. With a direct drive you need low lift flow and cam, heads and intake are critical. Again I'm not a Ford guy but this is where I would be looking if all the basics had been checked and found in spec. Based on known data from other platforms the Q blades will give a objective evaluation of your output.

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Slidin Gator
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by Slidin Gator » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:19 am

The 72” “Q” blade is a common reference blade, knowing what pitch the motor handles gives a good idea on power.

Radtech is using my Q right now down at Mack’s Fish Camp on his DD caddy. Load up go down there for some test and tune. He normally runs a 72” Sig also. We swapped his carb and put the Q on.

Last word was:
“I don’t know if it’s the carb, intake or prop, but the boat is WOKE UP”.

He will swap back to the Sig at some point for a direct prop to prop comparison.

I agree with Swamp, torque should peak around 2,500. Dyno run should have shown torque dropping at 3K and above, you built a hot gear drive motor.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by hdsadey » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:21 am

Thanks Swamp. That's really insightful. I've got a few decisions to make. This engine is going on the new hull so when I get ready I might change the cam or think about a drive. Now that it's ready to run I would like to check out those Q blades. As with all projects, they take more time than planned because of all the external issues like having to fit a larger radiator. Bought a Griffin and promptly sent it back because the tanks were epoxied. BTW Northern brand radiators are fully furnace brazed and very reasonable if anybody is in the market. I was really trying to stay away from a box due to the cost. The camshaft in it can always be used in an 66 F100 I'm building. I may give Bullet a call and pick their brain, although the current specs were suggested by them. Andrew at WW said it would be perfect with a 1.7 as well
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hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by hdsadey » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:31 am

Yeah Gator, the dyno guy I had pull it wouldn't/couldn't pull it below 3000 with his Dynomite rig. We are about 2 weeks from receiving the brand new Stuska dyno at the machine shop so when the engine comes back off it will go on. Cam change could be on order then. I wanna get it out on the water to play with it, it's been agonizing with it in the shop, plus I got customers hotrods to work on and need the room!
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
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kwanjangnihm
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by kwanjangnihm » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:46 am

1. Are you running fuel injection now and not the carb in the dyno pull?
2. The sigs like higher rpm to create thrust numbers. (might test a long hub to make 74")
3. The Q's I tested kicked in at lower rpms for breaking loose on ground running (`2-300 rpms sooner)
4. Would like to see dyno results at lower operating range as well. (1500-3000 rpm)

have enjoyed following the thread build progress! :salute:
" I don't care who you are back in the world, you give away our position one more time, I'll bleed ya, real quiet. Leave ya here. Got that? "

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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by hdsadey » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:08 pm

Yes the Fitech is on. On a vehicle they say at least 200 miles before the system has a good tune on it. So maybe I'm a little premature on the expectations. Maybe has a total of an hour of run time but that's an hour broken up into little segments. I really need to get it on the water and let it learn for a long stretch with varied RPMs. Just a little bummed out on it's initial testing. With the pitch at 83 it snaps pretty good. I have video but can't post it from the phone for some reason.
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02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:24 pm

GRIFFIN RADIATOR !!! They suck, in my opinion they are junk.

I bought a custom radiator ($650) from them only to have that crap epoxy fail and them do nothing to help me when I called them for assistance. They were useless and failed at making me a "custom airboat radiator" an epic fail!

Blu and I bought cheap Northern Radiator units (welded) from Floral City Airboats that were 1/3 the cost of that piece of crap Griffin and we both would recommend the Northern "airboat" radiator for the majority of car motor applications. That crap epoxy glue Griffin used can not take the harmonics and pressure forces an airboat propeller exposes it to. It split and leaked then they failed to stand behind their product.

Back to the 408

No disrespect and didn't want to get in a pissing contest with anyone who bragged about Bullet but that cam company failed in my opinion. If you took a stock 351W cam spec and added 50 to 80 thousandths of lift and kept the duration at 50' close to stock you would have had a better result. Not a Ford guy so I don't know if a stock Ford Windsor engine is a single or double pattern but I might have opted for a single pattern cam.

Gear Drive that bitch and be done with it!

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Slidin Gator
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by Slidin Gator » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:34 pm

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:Gear Drive that bitch and be done with it!
Don't listen to Swamp, he is living the good life now and not willing to work for his bread :stirpot:
kwanjangnihm wrote: 2. The sigs like higher rpm to create thrust numbers. (might test a long hub to make 74")
3. The Q's I tested kicked in at lower rpms for breaking loose on ground running (`2-300 rpms sooner)
This is exactly a big question in my mind! I find the Q matches the AV power curve well but these rodded DD motors always perform better at a few more RPM's coming in right around 3K, it just such a narrow window. I don't think a larger blade is the right answer, if anything a smaller diameter prop at higher RPM will let you put the power the motor makes to the wind. Personally I think the Warp/Saber type props are the better option since they operate best at high RPM and speed while snapping past the low torque range faster. Very interested if the Sig is a better DD CM blade or not :scratch:
hdsadey wrote:The camshaft in it can always be used in an 66 F100 I'm building. I may give Bullet a call and pick their brain, although the current specs were suggested by them.
I know it is pretty hard to believe, but the best place to start on a DD application is the stock cam because torque off idle is what puts a smile on your face. You really have to give up something to make a motor make max torque below 3K. You went solid lifters (I assume roller) so that gives some room for increased duration without overlap (I missed my own advise a few pages ago in this thread).

Regardless, a good DD motor is going to pull a good vacuum at idle. What is the idle vacuum reading, what is the minimum smooth idle RPM and does it come close to no vacuum at WOT? :scratch:
hdsadey wrote:On a vehicle they say at least 200 miles before the system has a good tune on it. So maybe I'm a little premature on the expectations. Maybe has a total of an hour of run time but that's an hour broken up into little segments
Keep the prop pitch on the heavy side for now, choke the motor and run it hard. Loosen that motor up and then worry about what you have. Do you have access to an O2 sensor, it is a great tool?
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by unforgiven11B » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:37 pm

FYI swamp- old man griffin sold completely out years ago and the new company retained the Griffin name and Dragon trademark and abruptly stopped tig welding the radiators and switched to an epoxy resin (cheaper). And yes the quality went to garbage. The epoxy will not hold up to the vibrations in an airboat application however, You can still get ol man Griffin to build you a quality custom All TIG welded radiator when he reached by phone he is local last I knew. I have a Griffin on mine you’ve seen just not noticed it is an old one all tigged.

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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:53 pm

Gotcha brother

I'm going stir crazy waiting on the new engine and drive. About another 2 weeks on the Ox box. Hopefully be back out in a month.


On the 408 a factory351W OE cam would have been a Hyd flat tappet in the 206 / 212 @50 duration range. There were several options over the years a few degrees each way based on application. A mechanical (solid lifter) cam generally runs a higher duration than a hydraulic lifter camshaft. So I feel fairly safe saying a solid lifter cam in the 214 / 218 or 216 / 216 with a 112 LSA would have worked very well for you. That would move your peak torque down a bit and smooth out the idle picking up vacuum. The absolute best choice would have been a hyd. roller cam with a very fast ramp speed. That really helps get you over the hump as it pops open the valve and then drops it back on the seat faster. This gives you more time at peak lift and allows you to fill the cylinder with more air and fuel.
Last edited by SWAMPHUNTER45 on Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by hdsadey » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:49 pm

Thinkin I'll repitch it to 2700 on the trailer which should put me at 28/29 on the water. It's a solid flat tappet cam and lifters. Had an extra new set lifters laying around the machine shop that the boss man gave to me. It's got about 13/14 inches at idle (500 rpms). At 1000 its got 16 inches. O2 sensor is in the right header just below the merge. Might have to hang out on the street corner offering up handys to get the money for a box! Lol Sorry pics are fuzzy.
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by Slidin Gator » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:08 pm

I see 14 inches of mercury at 551 RPM. Should be pulling 17-18. Wear in the rings, valves and cam and computer and then check it all again. You probably gonna need to change the cam or add a gear box. Cam swap is cheap, gear box will change your outlook on life.

Short of a custom grind, I suggest a roller hydraulic with great idle, or at least a stock hydraulic flat tappet cam. Heads, intake and stroke is what you need for a DD unless you add compression. You are $8K in now, don't let another set of cam and lifters stop you. You should be able to get close on the valve ramp and keep some duration with roller/hydraulic vs. flat/solid. Once tuned you won't have to deal with the valves again. With those solid lifters you are gonna be sitting at the landing trying to warm up while all your buds are 2 miles into the swamp. By the time you catch up the motor will be running hot and making valve noise.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by flcracker9 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:40 am

I know it is pretty hard to believe, but the best place to start on a DD application is the stock cam because torque off idle is what puts a smile on your face. You really have to give up something to make a motor make max torque below 3K. You went solid lifters (I assume roller) so that gives some room for increased duration without overlap (I missed my own advise a few pages ago in this thread)
The combo that worked for us on my Son's DD was we stroked his 350 to 385", but kept the stock Vortec roller cam and the stock Vortec iron heads, running a 70" Q. Never been on a dyno, but he has no problems running dry ground with 2 adults and full gear. I too think the cam is limiting your potential. I'm in West Palm, but would be willing to meet up if you want to test a Q prop. I have a small hub to make it 70", and a medium hub to make it 72".


We also have a 351W we were thinking of building for a DD, but we were going to stroke it to 363 & use a factory roller cam & the GT40P heads we have. I believe that combo would keep the RPM range down where we need it, we just have too many other projects right now. Probably not an option for you at this point, but I do have a set of GT40P heads converted to roller rockers that are just sitting in the shop if you wanted to experiment?. It would be interesting to see what torque numbers they would put out on a stroked SBF.
12' Open Palm Beach, IO-0470-L 260hp, 72" NGQ

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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by hdsadey » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:17 pm

This coming Saturday I'm gonna take it out on the Peace River and run it. Plan on taking my digital angle finder and Snap-on torque wrench, give it hell and see what comes of it! Thanks for the offer Cracker. May have to make a trip to Okeechobee soon, maybe we can meet up somewhere around there.
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by hdsadey » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:54 pm

So we proceeded to tear down a Blueprint 383 Chevy out of a gearbox boat today. No. 1 and 8 pistons have broken ring lands. The sides of the pistons show galling, looks like a lean condition. If you notice they are Sealed Power hypereutectic .040 over. It also sports standard cast rods. Cast crank. Chinese aluminum heads. Flat tappet cam in a roller block. I looked up the price through Summit and they run $4450. Doesn't seem like a lot of value. I don't know, what do you all think? We're gonna suggest forged pistons and rods, also a roller camshaft to avoid using zinc oil. Also a dyno pull to make sure the AFR's are correct so it doesn't have another meltdown.
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by Slidin Gator » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:49 pm

hdsadey wrote:So we proceeded to tear down a Blueprint 383 Chevy out of a gearbox boat today. No. 1 and 8 pistons have broken ring lands. The sides of the pistons show galling, looks like a lean condition.

Also a dyno pull to make sure the AFR's are correct so it doesn't have another meltdown.
I think you diagnosed the problem off the bat, lean is mean, for a little while. The parts recommended certainly won't hurt, but aren't needed to fix the failure. Dyno pulls are fine, but the prop is the dyno that matters. Just instrument the motor and test/tune it with the prop it's gonna run and you got it.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by flcracker9 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:42 am

We found the same thing tearing down our Blueprint 383, broken ring land on #8, piston skirts were scuffed pretty bad, only difference was ours has Keith Black hypereutectic pistons. We were able to minimize the damage and got by replacing the 1 piston, and bead blasted the others, replaced the crank (with another Chinese made cast Scat crank), rebalanced the whole rotating assembly and it's still running great 2 years later. If I had to do it over again, at a minimum I would have trashed the pistons for a better quality piston. As the old saying goes, ya gets what ya pays for! I know there's a lot of folks happy with their Blueprint engines, but I wouldn't buy another one after tearing this one down.
12' Open Palm Beach, IO-0470-L 260hp, 72" NGQ

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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:03 am

As far as BPE goes there are guys who get by running them but more have problems as they are not built for the severe duty application an airboat exposes it to. My neighbor runs the same BPE383 so they will work if you take timing out and run blended fuel. Usually it is the Pistons or flat tappet cams that go on that particular engine. Probably the cam guys use cheap oil without ZZPD.

The difference between spending $4500 and $8000 is quality.

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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by flcracker9 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:03 pm

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:As far as BPE goes there are guys who get by running them but more have problems as they are not built for the severe duty application an airboat exposes it to. My neighbor runs the same BPE383 so they will work if you take timing out and run blended fuel. Usually it is the Pistons or flat tappet cams that go on that particular engine. Probably the cam guys use cheap oil without ZZPD.

The difference between spending $4500 and $8000 is quality.
100% correct! We did exactly that on ours, replaced the flat tappet cam with a roller cam. We are currently running 34* total timing, but running 93 octane only, and it's been running great. Don't want to tear it apart again.
12' Open Palm Beach, IO-0470-L 260hp, 72" NGQ

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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by hdsadey » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:42 pm

Well yesterday was the maiden voyage with the new setup and I have to say that 408 impressed me! It's pretty snappy and will damn sure run dry! Think the injection system needed time to learn what the engine wanted. I pulled up to what they call the racetrack where there is about a 6 foot rise to get up on the flat. To my surprised she climbed right up with little effort. When I left I pointed it south and crossed 200 yards of flat to get back in the water. Could never do that before! Deep water cruise used to be 2400-2500, now 1800-1900 keeps it on plane and running smooth. Ran great all day until the fuel pump decided to go south on me and had to baby it home. Pump started to sound like a coffee grinder and fuel pressure was dropping. Other than that it was a successful test. Was gonna tune the blades and brought everything but the digital angle finder so wasn't able to make any changes. Wide open was around 3000, might choke it up just a bit but man what a difference!
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02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by flcracker9 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:00 am

Sounds like your initial disappointment turned 180 degrees! There was no doubt in my mind it would perform much better than your previous setup! Like mentioned previously, I think there's still some left on the table as far as the camshaft selection, but sounds like your pretty happy with the water test! Great job, fix the fuel pump issue and go have fun. As my buddy Pipedog (Kyle Anderson) said when he built his new boat (his old boat wouldn't run dry), "No more walk of shame", you can now join your buddies up in the shade.
12' Open Palm Beach, IO-0470-L 260hp, 72" NGQ

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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:00 am

Glad your wearing a smile! Sucks when you work on something and it disappoints you. When you forge new ground sometimes it happens. Like said several intelligent folks feel there is more performance to be extracted from that 408. How much I really cant tell you but ran your cam data and dyno past Mr Branch last week and he agreed you would greatly benefit from a roller camshaft and a cam with less duration. He explained to me that in some cases the WOT gain may be insignificant but the lower rpm range acceleration is often times the reward. If your power needs are met leave it and enjoy but if you think you would like a little more you have something to experiment with either changing the cam for DD or going to a gear drive.
Congrats on the build and putting a capable Ford out in the swamp. You did it your self and should be commended. Not many guys hot tank and machine their own build so you should be real proud of it.

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