408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

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hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:38 pm

Thanks guys. Before the new hull gets here I'm gonna be researching hydraulic rollers to replace the cam I have. The new shop dyno should be installed soon and when the engine comes off I plan on testing it between 1500 and 3000 to see what it makes further down. I was thumbing through Bullets cam spec list and there seems to be better choices than what I was sent. Especially in a roller. Although she runs well I too believe there's more at this point. Can't afford 6k between a box and blade so camshaft is next. For now I'm just happy to be burnin fossil fuel again lol!
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

HVGator
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby HVGator » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:29 pm

Wonderful news to hear about a SBF! Congrats on your build.
13 ft Diamondback, GSO-480, 4 blade Q, gas tank too small, not enough cash to fill it.

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:30 pm

Thank you sir! I have fallen down the rabbit hole of camshafts. I have read where solid lifters can effectively reduce the duration of a cam due to lash setting. On a dyno, lash can be loosened or tightened to move the power band around. Solids can make as much as 10 deg. less in duration compared to a hydraulic. When the new dyno gets here I believe I will do some experimenting with lash to see what power is gained running less lash, could help me determine what cam spec to go to next. New fuel pump should be here tomorrow!
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

SWAMPHUNTER45
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby SWAMPHUNTER45 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:02 pm

There is advertised duration, duration at 50, installed duration and effective duration. A mechanical cam does generally speaking use a higher number but in my humble opinion with that considered your cam is still far to big.

If I had to guess why Bullet did what they did it was to make good lift and still have a lobe profile that would work, they had to raise duration to keep the lobe from being to sharp. On a slider lobe you cant get it to sharp or the lifter will hop and the lobe will scar. Just a hunch as it is one of the many things we do when looking to go to the extreme.

Put that aside and think hyd. roller and what it offers. You avoid the lash issue which at low rpm bleeds oil and oil pressure off. You gain a more aggressive opening and softer return to the seat as well as more lift than a flat tappet could ever make.

You want lower duration to bring peak torque early
A wide LSA to raise vacuum and port velocity
Good lift but not excessive
A fast ramp to give you more time under a fully open valve

If you decide to go roller do yourself a favor and call Mr Branch and order your cam from him. Doubt it would be much more than $50 and he would design a one off custom exactly for your build spec. He has all the CompCam profiles and in a few hours has it drawn up. The guys at Comp get him a custom within 2 weeks normally. The man is a wizard, he sits up at night designing pistons and cams etc. He may be doing a sbc Ford in the next year or two for my cousins vintage Bronco. Been leaning toward a 347 using the little block.

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:30 pm

Sounds like a plan. How do I get in touch with Mr. Branch?
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:19 pm

Unfortunately upon research, the Edelbrock heads I used are not compatible with roller cams due to the powdered metal valve seats.
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

SWAMPHUNTER45
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby SWAMPHUNTER45 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:11 pm

That sucks that they are not roller compatible. It is a pain in the ass to change seats not worth it in my opinion. Well I guess play with the dyno when it gets set up and maybe consider other options. My cousin bought the Ford Motorsports heads guess I better look into their compatibility.

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keys2pines
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby keys2pines » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:47 pm

How are you liking the Fitech? Are you using it to control timing? I'm thinking about converting mine with their system.
12x6'8" Taylor deckover, 383 DD, 72" Sensenich JM
Our keys house for rent, 10% off for SA members https://rentalsfloridakeys.com/view-unit/l/Marathon/MA770/#image-10 :usa:

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:31 pm

I've been running the Fitech for over 2 years. I've installed probably a dozen over the last 5 years. I really like them, some people don't but I believe they go in with jaded expectations. They can be a little quirky. Starts up without a problem, self warms, really responsive! The one I have has never given me a problem. The Go EFI 400 doesn't have timing control. I have experience with the 600 hp unit that comes with timing control. The hot rod we put it on was a 350 Chevy. It had a Pertronix distributor. It requires a degreeable rotor that needs to be adjusted 20 degrees to allow the EFI to interpret the signal. I will tell you its badass with the timing controlled. I could drive it down the road and adjust more or less spark advance depending on how it was acting. Really cool setup. Ran like a scalded dog.

A couple things I have learned!!!!!

Thermostat needs to be at least 180 degrees. It doesn't close loop until 172. If the stat is too cold it will never act right!

Exhaust leaks will kill the tune. If you have ANY AND I MEAN ANY leaks before the O2 sensor, the computer will get false info causing it to run like shit!!!

When we install them on a vehicle, they say at least 200 miles before the computer has enough data to properly build a tune. That being said, figure at least 4 hours of running if you calculate an average of 50 mph. It's going to chase itself for that period. It will continue to learn indefinitely.

Vacuum readings are important. They list cam settings from 1-4. 1 being mild and over 16 inches of vacuum. 4 is race and less than like 7 inches. If your not close on the cam selection it's gonna be a pain in the ass.

IAC (idle air control) needs to be set between 3-10. When adjusting the throttle screw, after adjusting, turn the engine off and let the screen go blank. This resets the TPS (throttle position sensor). Start and adjust some more until between 3-10. Shutting down after each adjustment.

Lokar makes a throttle bracket that bolts right to the throttle body. This is relatively new but takes all the quess work out.

You can run these backwards on a square bore intake manifold so your throttle cable is oriented to the front of the boat.

Pre filter and post filter are a must for fuel pump. I thought my pump was dying the last time out, turns out when I modified the tank for the sump I didn't get all the aluminum shavings out. TOOK 2 DAMN YEARS AND MY NEW ENGINE TO CLOG UP THE PRE FILTER!!!! Saved my pump from destruction.

They are great systems in my opinion. They need accurate info and time to learn. If your patient they are wonderful!!!
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

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keys2pines
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby keys2pines » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:03 pm

Awesome man! Thanks for the info. The carb that's on my boat now is not adjustable enough, and my wideband is telling me I'm lean at WOT and a little rich at cruise. Need more tunability, and spending $400-$600 on a new carb when I can go EFI for $1000 is a no-brainer.
12x6'8" Taylor deckover, 383 DD, 72" Sensenich JM
Our keys house for rent, 10% off for SA members https://rentalsfloridakeys.com/view-unit/l/Marathon/MA770/#image-10 :usa:

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:15 am

Absolutely! Anytime I can pass along the knowledge I've gained, I'm happy to do so. I think the EFI units have gotten a bad rap simply because the manufacturer's have claimed the proverbial PLUG AND PLAY scenario. While true, if you have little knowledge on how engines operate then helping the EFI to learn properly becomes an ass ache. The last one I installed was on a 1940 Ford sedan with a ZZ4, out of the box it ran almost flawlessly. The guy's other 40 coupe has been a little more challenging! Accel pump adjustments were in order!

Everyone needs to understand that carburetors are dumb and will often mask an engine problem. EFI will usually show an issue but gets blamed for not working right and being the culprit! The "it ran fine with the carb, didn't act up til I installed the injection" statement is used too often. Too quick to condemn the technology!

The reference to the job where we hooked up the timing control is a case for the above. 350 Chevy with dual quad Edelbrocks ran what seemed to be fine except for being rich. Installed the Fitech and immediately developed a backfire through the throttle body. Thought it was a lean pop. Chased it for hours on the hand held unit with adjustments. Finally looked down into the manifold and discovered one side of the new manifold was tan while the other was clean. Pulled the right valve cover and found one valve spring retainer 3/4 broken. Wouldn't close the valve every time. Upon further investigation we found the cam had too much lift (.488) for the Chinese aluminum heads (.450) and was sending the springs into coil bind! It was ready to start dropping valves like nobody's business. New Edelbrock heads fixed the issue and all was happy. The carb setup was soooo rich it didn't show up. Ended up saving the guys engine with EFI!!!

I've done MSD Atomic, FAST EFI, and Fitech. Fitech was the first that made the conversion truely affordable so I have stuck with them. Haven't done the Holley Sniper, but have a machine shop customer that swears by them! Does a ton of C2 Vettes with them. He learned that the exhaust crossover in older manifolds need to be blocked or it cooks the orings in the fuel regulator.

So as you can see I'm a fan but had learned lessons the hard way as we all have! If you choose that route, don't hesitate to ask me questions, I probably have answers or at least insight!
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

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keys2pines
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby keys2pines » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:30 pm

Thanks! I ended up digging more and found a metering plate conversion so I can put different jets in the secondary. I'm going to tune it best I can with the carb and run it for a while. I had a turbo LT1 camaro before so I'm honestly more comfortable with a laptop than a carb lol, but this boat is making me learn something new!
12x6'8" Taylor deckover, 383 DD, 72" Sensenich JM
Our keys house for rent, 10% off for SA members https://rentalsfloridakeys.com/view-unit/l/Marathon/MA770/#image-10 :usa:

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:19 pm

Easter Sunday got a chance to get out and put some more time on the new powerplant. Here's a couple of short videos of it running dry at the racetrack on the Peace River. Turns out to be a sort of point and go setup at this time.




:thumbleft:
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

makinwaves
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby makinwaves » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:15 am

I was with a cluster of boats at the north end of racetrack Sunday watching you go up the bank and across the field. We were impressed.

flcracker9
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby flcracker9 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:50 am

Glad it's working out to your expectations, lot of time and money but looks like it was worth the effort!
12' Open Palm Beach, IO-0470-L 260hp, 72" NGQ

hdsadey
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Re: 408 Ford stroker build underway! Direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:35 pm

Thanks guys. Yeah a lot of work building that engine, but the satisfaction is rewarding. Waves I would have come over but the other boat was my pops, it won't run dry, he can't walk very far and his airboat etiquette isn't great when it comes to other people. The dyno finally arrived at the machine shop so when the new hull gets done I'm gonna see if I can't find more power during the swap.
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02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec


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