ECOTEC 2.0 LTG SWAP

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FISHSTICKER
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ECOTEC 2.0 LTG SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:11 pm

ECOTEC 2.0 NO LONGER LHU NOW A LTG SWAP

I have a 2016 Dragonfly Airboat with a 1.3 Suzuki 100hp / 13’-4” by 82” wide (at the bottom and only about 84” wide at the top as the
sides are near vertical) aluminum hull. Dry weight of the boat is about 1100# I believe. Love the boat but need more power. Same
problem we all have right?

My total motor/cooling system /reduction drive and prop weigh about 225#

I have been reading here for a year now on all the ecotec threads and want to thank all you guys for putting in the work to document
everything you have done. Here is the summary of my plan

And I promise to do my best to provide a good build thread for others to follow if they choose to.

MOTOR 2.0 LHU
Buy an entire 2011-2013 Buick Regal GS wrecked but still running minimal front end damage. I think I can get a whole car for maybe
less than $1500. If you guys have a recommendation for a company who sells complete pulled motors with all sensors, accessories,
ECU and harness I am interested. Do I need to try to get a manual trans car? My thinking is if I buy a complete car I can run the
motor to try and ensure it’s functioning properly and correct any issues before the install. I may try to use the existing harness and
ECU to build my own standalone system. I saw a few post about avoiding the 2013 ECU as it was different and not well supported. Is
that true?

If I don’t get a complete car what parts should I make certain I get with the motor?

I plan to run the motor at near stock power levels….275 ish HP I believe.

HARNESS AND ECU
Plan A attempt to use factory ECU and build standalone harness from factory original. Need to find a tuner to add new tune to my
ECU. Any recommendations? If I get bogged down I will go to plan B

Plan B buy standalone harness and ECU from Swap Specialties and Performance or CBM Motorsports

REDUCTION DRIVE
As Russ is running a 2.3 ratio I am assuming this is the best ratio to run. But what would be a min/ max range for gear ratio?
Plan A I have a Nice nearly new 2.588:1 Reduction from Aeromomentum in Florida. I have about 100 hours on it and no issues. Pretty
light weight and rated at 225HP. (Need to Check bolt pattern) I would like to get an adapter made for this gearbox so that I could
bolt it to the LHU. Anyone have a recommendation on a fabricator that has already done this type of work or who could do that?

Plan B try to get an ecotec box from Ballistic
Plan C Ox Box or Stinger with adapter plat
Plan D Centry Drives.

PROP
I know Russ has tried several different props and I have looked at that info. However, with my boat and existing cage (assuming I can
re-use the cage) I am limited to 73”-74” prop diameter. With that being the case I assume I should go for a wide 4 blade design?
What would you guys recommend? I have no desire to run fast. I want a combo to provide max dry ground performance and fuel
efficiency I am very happy never running faster than 40mph but I want to drive slowly across anything. I like a very slow speed at idle
for bow fishing and frogging.

CAGE
My cage is in mint condition and is powder coated stainless. I am going to try to re-use it

ENGINE STAND
Once I get the Engine I will see if It makes since to modify my existing stand mounting points or just get a new stand built Who would
you recommend for a new stand? I would have it made out of round stainless.

Additional things I am looking for a recommendation on.

Intercooler?

Fuel pump? Will I have to use an internal (in tank) fuel pump? My tank is currently set up for external pump with return line.

Air filter / air box?

Radiator?

Exhaust manifold. Should I just use the existing manifold or is there a recommended aftermarket alternative?
What diameter exhaust piping? Should I run a cat or no cat and/or muffler? I assume that motor has one or two o2 sensors.

As my boat is currently running great I am not in a rush to get this done. I am estimating it will happen over the next 6 to 12 months.
After the swap I will put the Suzuki/reduction drive (if I don’t keep it) and Prop up for sale…..I’m thinking about asking $5,000 or so for
everything. $1500 less if I keep the reduction drive.

Thanks in advance for all the help!

Eddie
Last edited by FISHSTICKER on Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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OneBFC
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by OneBFC » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:05 pm

So many things can go awry that it's just not possible to comprehensively go over it here.

The info you have collected from this site already is a good start, no doubt. I have spent 1000+ hrs learning the ins and outs and what works and doesn't. Some others on here have too.

I may be able to help you, drop me a PM and we can go from there.
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,85+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy

FISHSTICKER
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:17 pm

Greatly appreciated Russ I will take you up on your offer. I just found a company selling what is supposed to be new zero mile GM LNF nearly complete for $2030 to your door. Looks like it’s minus starter, alternator but other wise pretty complete. ATK High Performance Engines. I have never heard of these guys anyone have any experience with them?

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Slidin Gator
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by Slidin Gator » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:18 pm

FISHSTICKER wrote:I have a 2016 Dragonfly Airboat 13’-4” by 82” wide (at the bottom and only about 84” wide at the top as the sides are near vertical) aluminum hull. Dry weight of the boat is about 1100# I believe.

REDUCTION DRIVE
As Russ is running a 2.3 ratio I am assuming this is the best ratio to run. But what would be a min/ max range for gear ratio?

Plan A I have a Nice nearly new 2.588:1 Reduction

PROP
I am limited to 73”-74” prop diameter. With that being the case I assume I should go for a wide 4 blade design?

I have no desire to run fast. I want to drive slowly across anything.
At 82-84" wide that is not a narrow hull, but it's not wide either, the turning chine system does provide some stability vs. other designs, but there is a torque limit. Note that BFC's boat is a full 6" wider, the right gear for his boat does not mean its the right gear for your boat. The more gear you put on it the more prop torque and torque roll that you will need to deal with. The 2.59 ratio box will put you around 750 ft-lbs of prop torque and my guess is roll your boat like I turtle. I would suggest finding out what reduction ratio Dragonfly put's on their ecotec boats and use that as a guide to gear selection.

Not knowing how that hull handles torque, I'm guessing but think 2.3 (650 ft-lbs) would be the top end, and only if you intend to stay with stock power level. If you add bigger turbos in the future you are adding more prop torque and going back to 750 ft-lbs of turtle turning torque. I would suggest 2.0 as the just right mama bear. That puts you right at optimum prop speed (2,500-2,750) for a 74" prop with the motor at max 5,500-5,500 RPM. 84" wide boats are made to handle 500-650 ft-lbs Less ratio just limits max Hp, so no need to consider anything lower.

As for prop, 275 Hp at 2,800 prop speed is gonna work best with 2 wide blades or 3 slightly narrower. For a go anywhere bulldozer, get a 2 blade NGQ. Your planned motor with a 2.0 gear should push that prop great, somewhere between 2-3 out of 3 on pitch and push that little boat anywhere you want to go, at a snails crawl if you want.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Slidin Gator
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by Slidin Gator » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:25 pm

FISHSTICKER wrote:I just found a company selling what is supposed to be new zero mile GM LNF nearly complete for $2030 to your door. Looks like it’s minus starter, alternator but other wise pretty complete. ATK High Performance Engines. I have never heard of these guys anyone have any experience with them?
ATK is a big engine re-manufacturer out of Texas, most of the auto parts stores sell there stuff (order reman from NAPA, Advance etc, it comes from ATK).

I have used them before on several rebuilds over the years, all on pretty much near stock Chevy 350 applications, no flame thrower motors and I can't speak to turbo motors from them. I never had a problem with what I received and you can specify some options (compression ratio etc.). They are a good source for the money in my experience.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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OneBFC
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by OneBFC » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:34 pm

No offense SG, and i know you mean well, but you don't understand this engine.

Anyone reading this in the future should read more or talk to owners of the platform more before forging ahead with a 2 Blade 74 NGQ.
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,85+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy

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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by CarMotorBarge » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:21 am

Russ,

What do you recommend given the boat is limited to a 73" or 74" prop?
14x7.5 Al David hull with 14 inch transom
419 CI Horsepower Barn LS3 with 2.88 Ox Box swinging 4 blade 83.5" R
GTO Rigging and B&S Tilt Trailer

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kwanjangnihm
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by kwanjangnihm » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:41 am

OneBFC wrote: So many things can go awry that it's just not possible to comprehensively go over it here
fishsticker what are your goals for this build? (number of people on board, payload, running dry, climb a levee, etc)
" I don't care who you are back in the world, you give away our position one more time, I'll bleed ya, real quiet. Leave ya here. Got that? "

FISHSTICKER
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:27 am

With the current 100 hp and 2.588 reduction drive there is nearly 0 torque roll. Remarkably stable.

I do plan to keep it at stock power levels as I hope I have no desire for more push with the boat as light as it is.

Thanks for the info on ATK. The salesman I spoke to said they had more than 200 of those motors available if anyone else is interested but could not exactly verify what was and was not included......I wanted in writing before I order that it comes with intake and exhaust manifolds with turbo.....he said he would have to get back to me on that.

As for Goals for the build a bulldozer is a good analogy. This describes 90% of my trips. Two people going frogging or hunting lightly loaded. Drive from the boat landing 6 miles to the camp in deep water running the bank just outside the lily pads where I wont hit a stump at about 25 to 30 mph. Then run the timber behind the camp at displacement speed most of the time....not planed off. The runs are narrow and full of stumps there are very few places you can plane off and run without significant risk of an exciting end to your day. When the water is low and the swamp is mostly green grass and mud with no visible water I want to be able to run thru it. I can't do that with 100 hp. I want to pull up on the bank by my camp and not wonder if I'm going to have to winch off to get back in the water.

I also have a 14.5 x 7 Robicheaux with a 450 hp 454. Torque roll with that rounded chine and that much hp on that short narrow boat is quite noticeable. I am fairly certain you could roll it if you put the hammer down from a stand still without skilled rudder control. I don't think I have ever run that boat over 40 mph and it will run much faster than 40.

So why not sell the little boat and just keep the Robicheaux? Fuel burn between the two boats on the same trips 5 gallons v.s. 35 gallons.

The Robicheaux drafts 12" or more of water compared to currently 3" which i assume will go to maybe 4.5" on the little boat. I don't know the weight difference but when you hang up the little boat you can take care of it by yourself. When you hang up the big boat it doesn't mater how many people you have breakout the chainsaw.

And I still want better dry ground performance than the Robicheaux has. or more accurately more tall grass and mud performance.

And wider is not an option for my location. All those old runs were made for narrow boats.

FISHSTICKER
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:33 am

I am actively looking for a motor now. After talking to Russ I have opened up my search to include the LTG. So there may be a change in the title of this thread after I purchase my motor.

FISHSTICKER
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:59 am

Trying to remember how to post pics :D

FISHSTICKER
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:06 pm

Image

THE BIG BOAT

FISHSTICKER
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:07 pm

Image

THE LITTLE BOAT

FISHSTICKER
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:21 pm

Image

The sallow draft allows me to do a lot of idling. Drafting a foot of water requires getting on the skinny pedal every 10 yards to crawl over a log or stump.

FISHSTICKER
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:28 pm

I will likely sell the big boat after this motor swap.

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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:41 pm

Image

Typical terrain

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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by kwanjangnihm » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:59 pm

Eddie I grabbed the photo you uploaded to the gallery - the other links don't appear to work, nor could I get to them on the web. :salute:
" I don't care who you are back in the world, you give away our position one more time, I'll bleed ya, real quiet. Leave ya here. Got that? "

FISHSTICKER
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:41 pm

Yea I had previously been able to use my Dropbox account but I could not get that to work and uploading to southern airboat resulted in small / poor resolution. I started a IMGUR account and that looks like it will work well.

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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by Slidin Gator » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:02 pm

OneBFC wrote:No offense SG, and i know you mean well, but you don't understand this engine.
Probably not, I've never been on one.

But I do understand a lot of the other issues and goals that Fishsticker describes and I do have more than a passing interest in this build. I run a lightweight 14' x 7' round chine hull and have a new identical hull to build. So my build is similar to Fishstickers in terms of a narrower hull, but the DragonFly is probably less torque sensitive than mine, so my thinking may be a bit more conservative than needed.

My new hull baseline is a 300 Hp IO-540 making 600 ft-lbf at 2,800. I am open to considering alternatives if I can define the trade off's and determine what is best. By the specs a 275-300 Hp Eco compares well against the 540 on performance, in fact the flat torque curve outperforms. I'm not looking to crash Fishstickers thread, I am most interested in gear and prop selection for any kind of CM on a torque sensitive hull.

From my experience a GSO480 is a good point of comparison, they put upwards of 800 ft-lbf at 2,200 RPM to the prop. On a 7' Stossel all the poly wear is on the torque side because that's all they run on. More gear means more torque load on the hull all the time, for any given thrust level, higher gear = higher torque. Fishsticker describes lot's of stumps to climb over, a situation where torque roll can get you into trouble. Gearing to turn the prop at max RPM minimizes torque and roll, which is driving my thoughts.

As for the specific NGQ recommendation, I hesitated in adding that since there are plenty of prop options to achieve different goals.
Fishsticker described a bull dozer and the NGQ fits that bill in my experience.
FISHSTICKER wrote:With the current 100 hp and 2.588 reduction drive there is nearly 0 torque roll. Remarkably stable.
I don't doubt that at all, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the Suzuki 100 hp is at 7,000 rpm, so prop torque is less than 200 ft-lbf. The new setup is going to make 3x more prop torque at a minimum. I still suggest finding out what gear ratio Dragonfly uses on their Eco builds to use as a guide.

Good luck with the build, as I said, I have reason to follow your success, maybe even some of those trails!
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:25 pm

The Suzuki is @ 5600 RPM. I’ve got a call in to see what ratio they were running on the factory ecotec. They are no longer building them so I don’t know if i’ll get a good answer. Those were naturally aspirated and I think only making about 190 hp.

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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:07 pm

Dragonfly was using a 2.3 reduction on the 190 hp naturally aspirated ecotec

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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by Slidin Gator » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:57 pm

Dragonfly's website shows a Right hand rotation 3 blade Sensenich winglet prop and the specs say 70" diameter. The hub looks pretty short, to my knowledge they don't make the 11" winglet blade in right hand rotation, possibly the 12" NGQ blade on an extra short hub?? Looks like a Ballistic gear box.

Image

FISHSTICKER wrote:Dragonfly was using a 2.3 reduction on the 190 hp naturally aspirated ecotec
Specs I find on the 2.4 NA motors say 190 ft-lbf at 4,400 revs, making it 440 ft-lbf max at the prop. The plan here is a 300 ft-lbf motor, so at least 600 ft-lbf to the prop with a 2.0 ratio, 690 at 2.3.

Image


Eddie, You said the hull is 13'-4", does that measure to the end of the bow rail or the grass rake?

Image
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by CarMotorBarge » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:38 pm

So how much torque roll do you have when you make 1,600 foot lbs of torque from a motor/ratio combo? :shock:
14x7.5 Al David hull with 14 inch transom
419 CI Horsepower Barn LS3 with 2.88 Ox Box swinging 4 blade 83.5" R
GTO Rigging and B&S Tilt Trailer

FISHSTICKER
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:17 pm

13'-4" is to the end of the welded on grass rake.

Looks like I have found a 18,000 mile complete, dressed LTG out of a 2016 Malibu shipped to my door for $1700. Car had zero front end damage and seller guarantees it will run and provides a 6 month warranty.

If the sale goes thru I will need the GM standalone harness and ECU. Going to see where I can find the best price.

Might have to change the title 8)

FISHSTICKER
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Re: ECOTEC 2.0 LHU SWAP

Post by FISHSTICKER » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:23 pm

I wonder how sensitive the drive by wire electronic gas pedal will be to getting wet. I assume its well sealed but..........

I guess I could fab up a box with a drain hole to stick it in.

The GM crate motor LTG harness and ECU appear to be set up to work with a very specific fuel pump. I wonder if I can just install a pump that meets the pressure and flow rate requirements with a return to the tank and get it to work that way?

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