Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Automotive powered airboat discussion.
CarMotorBarge
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 937
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Lake Harney Woods

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby CarMotorBarge » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:23 pm

LOL. Airboaters are really slow to embrace new technology. You still have people running 70 year old A/C motors wondering why they are always getting stuck and having to shake rakes to get out.
14x7.5 Al David hull with 14 inch transom
419 CI Horsepower Barn LS3 with 2.88 Ox Box swinging 4 blade 83.5" R
GTO Rigging and B&S Tilt Trailer

diamondback0320
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 1318
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:09 pm
Location: palm bay,fl

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby diamondback0320 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:06 pm

Lol.. just love it when someone comes along harping on AC motors..yes their dinosaurs but still kicking.. don't think for a minute a big car motor gear box boat won't get stuck or struggle on the green magic carpet cause I've seen happen a many of times & a aircraft boat just as big slide right past em

User avatar
pontoon outlaw
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 1664
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:56 pm
Location: palm bay, ride in Cocoa

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby pontoon outlaw » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:10 pm

diamondback0320 wrote:Lol.. just love it when someone comes along harping on AC motors..yes their dinosaurs but still kicking.. don't think for a minute a big car motor gear box boat won't get stuck or struggle on the green magic carpet cause I've seen happen a many of times & a aircraft boat just as big slide right past em
Hahahahaha unless it's a 507 caddy with a Lycoming gearbox. Lol..

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]Southern Airboat mobile app powered by Tapatalk[/url]

CarMotorBarge
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 937
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Lake Harney Woods

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby CarMotorBarge » Wed May 01, 2019 5:45 am

ryansmoneypit wrote:Reading through this thread has been interesting. There is a lot of old tech and info about EFI in here. worry about computers overheating, not being waterproof, failing components. Like we all forgot that we daily drive on efi in our cars for the last 30 years..Standalone computers arent much different.

anyway, It has come a long way in just the last couple years. some will never embrace it, others will just enter a new fuel value in a matter of seconds, instead of changing jets around.


Now you can see what I am talking about. Airboaters just don't like change.
14x7.5 Al David hull with 14 inch transom
419 CI Horsepower Barn LS3 with 2.88 Ox Box swinging 4 blade 83.5" R
GTO Rigging and B&S Tilt Trailer

User avatar
keys2pines
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby keys2pines » Wed May 01, 2019 7:30 am

ryansmoneypit wrote:Reading through this thread has been interesting. There is a lot of old tech and info about EFI in here. worry about computers overheating, not being waterproof, failing components. Like we all forgot that we daily drive on efi in our cars for the last 30 years..Standalone computers arent much different.

anyway, It has come a long way in just the last couple years. some will never embrace it, others will just enter a new fuel value in a matter of seconds, instead of changing jets around.

Yep, and the more I think about my original question about the proper AFR and tuning with the computer the more I realize the computer is going to command a WOT AFR around 12.5. The reason being is the computer calculates the load on the engine by vacuum, WOT is WOT and vacuum should be 0. There's no difference whether it's at 2500rpm or 5000rpm, the AFR should be in the WOT safe area 12.5-13 max. I'm knee deep in installing the EFI system today, probably wont be done until next week. I'm looking forward to results, but the results are going to be skewed. I realized that the previous owner used a Victor JR intake manifold (single plane), so I switched it out to a performer air-gap (dual plane). That should push my powerband down some RPMs where I should be able to turn more prop. We'll see!
12x6'8" Taylor deckover, 383 DD, 72" Sensenich JM

SWAMPHUNTER45
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2735
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:38 am
Location: Naturecoast, Florida

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby SWAMPHUNTER45 » Wed May 01, 2019 7:38 am

Fuel injection systems prefer a single plane intake.

ryansmoneypit
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:17 am

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby ryansmoneypit » Wed May 01, 2019 9:33 am

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:Fuel injection systems prefer a single plane intake.



Any empirical data on this or is it strictly anecdotal?


seems like the dual vs single just pushes the tq band around. not sure why that would be seen differently by an injection system. I would think of it as just another tool to reach your performance goal.


again, new to big V8's but not new to tuning. teach me.

hdsadey
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:42 pm
Location: venice fl.

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Wed May 01, 2019 11:42 am

Self learning systems bolt down to any square bore intake manifold. My 408 has a standard Edelbrock Performer dual plane intake that has a power level from idle to 5500 rpm. These systems do well with either single or dual. If I were to gearbox the engine I could run a single plane to move the powerband up with the same injection. I needed the little dual plane to make power below 3000. It's really no different than a carb except it tunes itself.
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

SWAMPHUNTER45
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2735
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:38 am
Location: Naturecoast, Florida

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby SWAMPHUNTER45 » Wed May 01, 2019 12:33 pm

Carburetor required vacuum to draw and atomize fuel from a booster much like sucking from a straw. It needs a longer runner and velocity of air over the venturi. FI uses pump pressure and a injector to spray. When GM (Cadillac) tested and produced early manifold based FI they discovered the injection process worked best with a single plane. FI does not need the longer runner path way of the dual plane to draw and atomize the fuel. With FI and a dual plane what you may find is that suspended fuel will "drop out" and create AFR deviations as droplets collect. This is one of the reasons why port injection is such a better option as opposed to a plate system.

When Mr Branch puts aftermarket TBI style FI on an engine it receives a single plane intake which he port matches to the heads and he also machines the plenum where necessary.

Best wishes with the new FI keep us posted on your experiences and any brand specific strength vs weakness.



I don't mind change,just don't want to be stuck out in the swamp with a high tech problem that can't be fixed on the spot with items at hand. My back up spare hoses, belt, fuel pump, HEI module, rotor, cap and coil cover most common problems. Just the way an old timer taught me and his dad taught him.

User avatar
keys2pines
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby keys2pines » Wed May 01, 2019 6:35 pm

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:Carburetor required vacuum to draw and atomize fuel from a booster much like sucking from a straw. It needs a longer runner and velocity of air over the venturi. FI uses pump pressure and a injector to spray. When GM (Cadillac) tested and produced early manifold based FI they discovered the injection process worked best with a single plane. FI does not need the longer runner path way of the dual plane to draw and atomize the fuel. With FI and a dual plane what you may find is that suspended fuel will "drop out" and create AFR deviations as droplets collect. This is one of the reasons why port injection is such a better option as opposed to a plate system.

When Mr Branch puts aftermarket TBI style FI on an engine it receives a single plane intake which he port matches to the heads and he also machines the plenum where necessary.

Best wishes with the new FI keep us posted on your experiences and any brand specific strength vs weakness.



I don't mind change,just don't want to be stuck out in the swamp with a high tech problem that can't be fixed on the spot with items at hand. My back up spare hoses, belt, fuel pump, HEI module, rotor, cap and coil cover most common problems. Just the way an old timer taught me and his dad taught him.

Per Fitech https://fitechefi.com/faq/what-is-bette ... -manifold/

Edit- here's another one from the owner, I'm only referring to the Fitech system. Maybe some other TBI systems have problems with dual plane, but it appears based on how the system injects fuel it doesn't cause a problem on Fitech. https://www.chevyhardcore.com/tech-stor ... at-fitech/
12x6'8" Taylor deckover, 383 DD, 72" Sensenich JM

hdsadey
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:42 pm
Location: venice fl.

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Wed May 01, 2019 8:27 pm

With a dual plane intake air velocity is created for down low power. The throttle body is still introducing fuel in the same place as a carb. Port injection I agree should make no difference since the fuel is sprayed directly in to the port. But on a throttle body I believe it makes all the difference. Same as you can get away with a small carb on a single plane intake than a dual plane. I may have to test this theory once the dyno is up and running. Now I agree with maybe a Torker style (2500-6500) for a gearbox boat to wake it up in the midrange.
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

SWAMPHUNTER45
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2735
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:38 am
Location: Naturecoast, Florida

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby SWAMPHUNTER45 » Wed May 01, 2019 9:58 pm

A lot of user data in sites like this one. Guys who experienced lean conditions on certain cylinders using a dual plane, map issues and fuel degradation to seals etc. Something to think about maybe.




http://cpgnation.com/forum/threads/ez-e ... ane.25871/
Last edited by SWAMPHUNTER45 on Wed May 01, 2019 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hdsadey
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:42 pm
Location: venice fl.

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby hdsadey » Wed May 01, 2019 10:10 pm

VERY INTERESTING! Think I might rethink my former opinion. Might have to try a Vic Jr. Thanks for the insight.
02 Predator 12' 0320 Lycoming
92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
99 Donzi 16 Classic 350 Vortec

User avatar
keys2pines
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby keys2pines » Thu May 02, 2019 9:14 pm

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:A lot of user data in sites like this one. Guys who experienced lean conditions on certain cylinders using a dual plane, map issues and fuel degradation to seals etc. Something to think about maybe.




http://cpgnation.com/forum/threads/ez-e ... ane.25871/

That's a different system, and a totally subjective post, but there are a lot of threads on the subject that go both ways. I was reading one where he "cured" all his dual-plane symptoms, until 3 pages later and the single plane was worse than the dual plane. Here's a scientific approach to the subject, notice on the carb motor up to 23% different EGT readings on certain cylinders. Based on this you can say using a carb on a dual-plane is a bad idea https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/carb-to-efi/
12x6'8" Taylor deckover, 383 DD, 72" Sensenich JM

SWAMPHUNTER45
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2735
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:38 am
Location: Naturecoast, Florida

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby SWAMPHUNTER45 » Thu May 02, 2019 10:30 pm

You will see when you run the dual plane KeyPine your gonna puddle fuel. Not a issue with the carburetor nothing to effect it, those fuel droplets just burn undetected but the EFI it's O2sensors and tune map will be effected. Maybe some of the systems have more forgiving software that is slower to adjust. Let us know how your system handles it and if you need to replace any components.

Here is another great source for you to learn from and it offers the 10 most common problems encountered with a EFI in a build.
The cam selection is a key component and will really dictate success of the intake selected. It appears with EFI because of the sensors and software picking a cam on the smaller side and being conservative offers advantages. HotRod warns of EFI manifold reversion and how cam LSA effects a longer runner. They discuss the air fuel charge being "pooled up" by reversion when intakes have a longer runner and advise with the typical aftermarket performance cam of higher duration or a low LSA the single plane intake offers tuning compatibilities.

Also important for you EFI guys to read about fuel selection. It is noted that you should not use a leaded fuel so aviation fuels or some of the race gasolines will lead to sensor malfunctions.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-98 ... -mistakes/

User avatar
keys2pines
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby keys2pines » Fri May 03, 2019 7:26 am

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:You will see when you run the dual plane KeyPine your gonna puddle fuel. Not a issue with the carburetor nothing to effect it, those fuel droplets just burn undetected but the EFI it's O2sensors and tune map will be effected. Maybe some of the systems have more forgiving software that is slower to adjust. Let us know how your system handles it and if you need to replace any components.

Here is another great source for you to learn from and it offers the 10 most common problems encountered with a EFI in a build.
The cam selection is a key component and will really dictate success of the intake selected. It appears with EFI because of the sensors and software picking a cam on the smaller side and being conservative offers advantages. HotRod warns of EFI manifold reversion and how cam LSA effects a longer runner. They discuss the air fuel charge being "pooled up" by reversion when intakes have a longer runner and advise with the typical aftermarket performance cam of higher duration or a low LSA the single plane intake offers tuning compatibilities.

Also important for you EFI guys to read about fuel selection. It is noted that you should not use a leaded fuel so aviation fuels or some of the race gasolines will lead to sensor malfunctions.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-98 ... -mistakes/

I'm on the Fitech user groups on facebook. There are literally hundreds using dual-plane with no issues whatsoever. Some with spacers, some without, some with the center divider milled some, some stock. Read this article where they used dual plane, see section number 6 where they show the picture of the fuel being injecting above the butterflies. The fuel should be atomized MORE than a carb. I've looked down the throat of my carb at WOT on the trailer, fuel is just pouring in like a hose. If anything that would cause puddling. I appreciate your comments, but the situation doesn't occur with THIS system. Holley doesn't recommend using dual-plane on their system because it causes issues, their map sensor only reads from one side. This system map sensor has a channel so it reads from both sides. As far as cam, I see 19" of vacuum at idle, super mild and I'm DD, no leaded gas for me. Join the Fitech user group on facebook, there are guys running big hp cars with no issues. http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engine ... -dyno-test

Edit- just in case there's confusion, I'm talking about TBI (throttle body injection), fuel being delivered at the same point as a carb. Port injection system use dry runners, and the fuel injectors are close to the intake valve. In a port injection system, they are ALL single plane because you want equal air flowing to the cylinders. The port injection system also doesn't suffer from the low end fuel distribution problems a carb might see.
12x6'8" Taylor deckover, 383 DD, 72" Sensenich JM

SWAMPHUNTER45
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2735
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:38 am
Location: Naturecoast, Florida

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby SWAMPHUNTER45 » Fri May 03, 2019 11:44 am

I would think any system that can get enhanced data would tend to be more likely to forecast and respond more accurately to changing conditions. Hence the factory systems having upstream and downstream sensors.

Do the FI Tech sensors have a self heat cycle at start up ?

That seems to be a fail point in the OEM systems.

ryansmoneypit
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:17 am

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby ryansmoneypit » Fri May 03, 2019 1:04 pm

efi systems do not forecast. they work using real time info, close to it anyway. Most decent systems also use a smoothing factor to eliminate a noisy signal from the WB, smoothing out the signal and number that we see...

automotive 2 sensor systems are a little different. they use a narrow band sensor for tuning and a second for relaying info about gasses, but just to signal a check engine light.


All (afik) wide band o2 sensors are self heated and should last years under good conditions.

User avatar
keys2pines
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby keys2pines » Fri May 03, 2019 8:50 pm

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:I would think any system that can get enhanced data would tend to be more likely to forecast and respond more accurately to changing conditions. Hence the factory systems having upstream and downstream sensors.

Do the FI Tech sensors have a self heat cycle at start up ?

That seems to be a fail point in the OEM systems.

I'm not sure about the self heat cycle, the wideband sensors have a heating element though. It's a basic efi system, the sensors it uses are MAP, coolant, TPS, and the wideband.
12x6'8" Taylor deckover, 383 DD, 72" Sensenich JM

SWAMPHUNTER45
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2735
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:38 am
Location: Naturecoast, Florida

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby SWAMPHUNTER45 » Sat May 04, 2019 9:19 am

Pardon me I don't speak EFI well...lol
I consider a MAP program a forecast as it is predetermined output parameters. If a self learn stores data then the stored data is used to forecast the need of future demand.

Does your system just react in real time off the sensor data or does it sort of average things. I wonder if where you refer to that smooth out feature is actually a MAP.

Do you know if the sensors are powered to heat themselves at startup ?

User avatar
kwanjangnihm
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 1907
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: Bartow FL

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby kwanjangnihm » Sat May 04, 2019 9:54 am

CarMotorBarge wrote: still have people running 70 year old A/C motors

glad I dont worry about these items when I'm running the marsh :cheers:

self heat cycle
wideband sensors
fuel puddle
heating element
MAP
coolant
TPS
wideband
O2 sensor
ECU
ECM
Go EFI Kit
Ultimate Kit

future forecast - yea I admit to checking the weather before I leave the house! :stirpot: :toothy7:
" I don't care who you are back in the world, you give away our position one more time, I'll bleed ya, real quiet. Leave ya here. Got that? "

SWAMPHUNTER45
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 2735
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:38 am
Location: Naturecoast, Florida

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby SWAMPHUNTER45 » Sat May 04, 2019 10:38 am

Oh Jeffery you long to be a CarMotor guy down deep don't you?

Being able to pull up anywhere you want loaded up. Buying pump gas at the corner store. Going to the NAPA for your parts.

Well maybe not, after all you have perfected the soon to be patented and now famous "Rudder Shake & Butt Scooch"

Oh the sight of that action !!!!!!!

Image

Keeth1123
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 8:54 pm
Location: Polk County
Contact:

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby Keeth1123 » Sat May 04, 2019 6:53 pm

Several people struggling today. Some thiiccccck stuff out there

:old_glory:

User avatar
keys2pines
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby keys2pines » Thu May 09, 2019 4:43 pm

Up and running! It’s getting hot though, I think there’s air in the cooling system.
Attachments
DD17E29D-6965-4EA1-8671-AE5316EE07CE.jpeg
03936069-E344-48E3-B5D3-2818AF0BE95C.jpeg
12x6'8" Taylor deckover, 383 DD, 72" Sensenich JM

User avatar
keys2pines
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Air fuel ratio for direct drive

Postby keys2pines » Thu May 09, 2019 4:54 pm

12x6'8" Taylor deckover, 383 DD, 72" Sensenich JM


Return to “Automotive Power Only”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests