LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

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SWAMPHUNTER45
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by SWAMPHUNTER45 » Thu May 16, 2019 10:45 pm

CMB I am going to speculate that the direct drive project has been abandoned and you are now going the 7,000 rpm route.


On the DD topic, I heard that there is someone (unknown) who has been working on a set of heads for an LS direct drive. Supposedly they are using an epoxy to narrow up and reshape the intake runners in an effort to enhance velocity and low lift flow.

Dave if your lurking might that be your project or is it someone else???

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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by CarMotorBarge » Fri May 17, 2019 5:45 am

Yes, I was never planning to do a DD. Plan to run a 2.88 ratio with this motor and spin it.
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by One Eyed Gator » Fri May 17, 2019 8:06 am


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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by CarMotorBarge » Thu May 30, 2019 9:01 pm

Here is an update. Got the LS2 block cleaned:

Image

This is a used block. There was a plug along with sealant in the oil dipstick hole. I think it was run as a dry sump in a car. I plan to run it as a wet sump. Had to remove the plug/sealant and clean up the block real good.

Next step is to install the main caps, ARP main studs, bearings, and check for clearances. Just a LOW TORQUE LS that will make more thrust and have more snap than slidin gators BIG TORQUE A/C motor. :stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot:
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by CarMotorBarge » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:07 am

Slidin Gator,

You stated the following in other thread:

"I certainly did, no doubt higher HP produces higher static thrust. Thrust needed is a function of the hull, friction and the load. I spot you top thrust king on the thrust tester vs. my 500 ft-lb motor. I am interested in the thrust response comparison, time to 90% of max thrust for a given rig. 40 yard dash, climb the hill and follow the leader through the woods, that's what counts. We are gonna have to set up an obstacle course"

We definitely need to measure how the LOW TORQUE LS will compare to the HIGH TORQUE A/C engine on thrust response. How about doing the following:

1. Do a 40 yard dash in the water.

2. Do a 40 yard dash on the hill.

3. Climb Obama Ridge.

4. Run a timed obstacle course in Gardner's Marsh.

5. Measure on the thrust tester the time it takes to go from idle to 1200 foot lbs of thrust.

All of these tests are stacked in favor of the HIGH TORQUE A/C engine.
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by CarMotorBarge » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:45 am

Here are the main caps, main bearings and ARP main studs for the LOW TORQUE LS:

Image

The main caps are stock LS main caps. Nothing special. P/N for the ARP main studs is 234-5608. Main studs are made from 8740 chromoly steel. P/N for the main bearings is MB5013XP STDX. Went up one size over factory clearances. Shooting for 0.0021" to 0.0027" main bearing clearance.
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by keys2pines » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:35 am

Figured I'd stir the pot, been a few days and I was enjoying this thread lol
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by CarMotorBarge » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:40 am

keys2pines wrote:Figured I'd stir the pot, been a few days and I was enjoying this thread lol
That video does a great job of explaining the science. 8) All the BIG TORQUE guys need to watch that video. :shock:

Now I will say that airboats are different from a car because an airboat can't shift the gear ratio on the fly like a car. The debate you get into on an airboat is whether you should shift the torque curve to the left or the right on a dyno sheet and what gear ratio you should use. The LOW TORQUE LS Engine build in this thread will be shifting the torque curve to the right. Max HSP will be at 7,000 RPMs and a 2.88 gear will be used. 8)
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by CarMotorBarge » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:52 am

Here is the latest on the LOW TORQUE LS Build. Got the main bearings installed:

Image

Torqued the inner studs to 60 ft lbs and the outer studs to 50 ft lbs. The side bolts were torqued to 20 ft lbs. Next step is to measure the tolerances for the main bearings.
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by Seven3 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:31 pm

SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:CMB I am going to speculate that the direct drive project has been abandoned and you are now going the 7,000 rpm route.


On the DD topic, I heard that there is someone (unknown) who has been working on a set of heads for an LS direct drive. Supposedly they are using an epoxy to narrow up and reshape the intake runners in an effort to enhance velocity and low lift flow.

Dave if your lurking might that be your project or is it someone else???
I’ve been hearing that this DD LS was going to revolutionize airboating for 5 years now. First heard it back in 2013 or 2014 I think, right after the Broward Airboat Show. I know a few of them have been built, just wondering why it’s taking so long for these to catch on if they’re so great? I’ve never seen one yet, but know of a couple. Just curious what’s going on with it.

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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by Prototype » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:20 pm

Seven3 wrote:
SWAMPHUNTER45 wrote:CMB I am going to speculate that the direct drive project has been abandoned and you are now going the 7,000 rpm route.


On the DD topic, I heard that there is someone (unknown) who has been working on a set of heads for an LS direct drive. Supposedly they are using an epoxy to narrow up and reshape the intake runners in an effort to enhance velocity and low lift flow.

Dave if your lurking might that be your project or is it someone else???
I’ve been hearing that this DD LS was going to revolutionize airboating for 5 years now. First heard it back in 2013 or 2014 I think, right after the Broward Airboat Show. I know a few of them have been built, just wondering why it’s taking so long for these to catch on if they’re so great? I’ve never seen one yet, but know of a couple. Just curious what’s going on with it.
On occasion, people get bored and want to build a slug on purpose! Most of them would buy an Alum 500 cad block for 50 bucks if it was made. There is no science in making power or not, just budget and how reliable you want it? Thrust testers are also cool but don't measure if the motor is mounted to a barge or superlight.
I kind of thought GM already did the low torque version of all their blocks?

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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by ryansmoneypit » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:08 pm

watching close here. Ive built a few race engines. lifespan is dramatically reduced with sustained high rpm. in my case( and certainly not a v8 for an airboat) we found this:

two engines, Identical build

7000 rpm rev limit = 100 hrs track time
8000 rpm rev limit = 15-20 hrs track time

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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by CarMotorBarge » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:41 am

Been busy lately with work. Getting back to this thread. So I don't plan to spin 8000 RPMs. The max will be 7000 RPMs. Hopefully I will get a little more longevity out of this motor. :shock:

The interesting thing is the LS7 comes from the factory with a 7000 RPM rev limit. The LS2 from the factory has a 6800 rev limit. The LS3 from the factory has a 6600 rev limit. Hopefully if I put some aftermarket valve springs and lifters, I will be OK spinning 7000 RPMs. 8)

Here is the latest on the build. I have the main bearings in. Check the clearances. Here is the data:

Main Bearing 1: 0.0026"
Main Bearing 2: 0.0023"
Main Bearing 3: 0.0025"
Main Bearing 4: 0.0033"
Main Bearing 5: 0.0035"

The perfect clearance is 0.0025". Bearings 4 and 5 are a little higher than I would like. Think I am going to pull the main caps and swap a few bearings around to get all of the clearances closer to 0.0025".
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by hdsadey » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:03 pm

Clevite makes .001 undersized bearings. You can use a standard upper and a .001 lower to tighten them up .0005. Or in no.5 use .001 upper and lower to get back to .0025.

Looks like an aluminum block so align hone isn't an option.
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by ryansmoneypit » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:17 pm

You want a max rpm of 7k, but also want max HP at 7k too? This sounds terribad. Most of its use would then be way under the curve HP and then relying on a wimpy TQ curve. unless of course you intend to cruize at close to 7k. In that case, fuel wont last long and neither will the engine.


Interesting side note: torque and horsepower numbers always converge at 5252 RPM. Food for thought.

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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by Slidin Gator » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:00 pm

ryansmoneypit wrote:Interesting side note: torque and horsepower numbers always converge at 5252 RPM. Food for thought.
No they don't, that only occurs when you plot Torque in Ft-lbf against Hp on the same scale. Plot them on different scales or try metric units and you can make them cross where ever you want. 5252 is meaningless.

As for Hp, The prop is always going to require maximum power at maximum rpm, that's the nature of the beast.

But I'm all in on the point about puny torque. :stirpot:
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by OneBFC » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:21 pm

ryansmoneypit wrote:You want a max rpm of 7k, but also want max HP at 7k too? This sounds terribad. Most of its use would then be way under the curve HP and then relying on a wimpy TQ curve. unless of course you intend to cruize at close to 7k. In that case, fuel wont last long and neither will the engine.


Interesting side note: torque and horsepower numbers always converge at 5252 RPM. Food for thought.
Well, I dunno. Pretty sure increase in RPM won't mandate less power at lower RPM.

My money is on the low torque build.

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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by ryansmoneypit » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:45 pm

Slidin Gator wrote:
ryansmoneypit wrote:Interesting side note: torque and horsepower numbers always converge at 5252 RPM. Food for thought.
No they don't, that only occurs when you plot Torque in Ft-lbf against Hp on the same scale. Plot them on different scales or try metric units and you can make them cross where ever you want. 5252 is meaningless.
:stirpot:

Oh but they do, and of course on the same scale. Ft lbs vs hp on the x vs RPM on the y, its just a math problem., metric or SAE make no difference. I would be interested to see a hp tq curve of a crank shaft engine, where they dont cross at 5252.

some reading about why is here.. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/111 ... t-5252-rpm


PS Highlighted the funny part in your statement. Although true, that point in itself is meaningless.

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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by Slidin Gator » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:54 pm

ryansmoneypit wrote:
Slidin Gator wrote:
ryansmoneypit wrote:Interesting side note: torque and horsepower numbers always converge at 5252 RPM. Food for thought.
No they don't, that only occurs when you plot Torque in Ft-lbf against Hp on the same scale. Plot them on different scales or try metric units and you can make them cross where ever you want. 5252 is meaningless.
Oh but they do, and of course on the same scale. Ft lbs vs hp on the x vs RPM on the y, its just a math problem., metric or SAE make no difference. I would be interested to see a hp tq curve of a crank shaft engine, where they dont cross at 5252.
Piston engine, electric motor, turboprop etc., the math is the same. Perhaps the rules of magic and engine Vodoo are different in the rest of the world where they use metric. The metric world must all have stupid conversations on the internet about 9,550 RPM being some magic RPM. I guess that's why all their crap rev's to 13K.

Note everything is plotted on the same scale, check the math if you want.
N-m stand for Newton Meters, 1 ft-lbf = 1.356 N-m.
Kilowatts is a very popular measure of Power, 1 Hp = 0.7457 kW

Image
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by ryansmoneypit » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:00 am

I can see how it might work out different in metric, now. but the HP vs tq equation remains the same.

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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by digginfool » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:56 am

Slidin Gator wrote:
ryansmoneypit wrote:
Slidin Gator wrote: No they don't, that only occurs when you plot Torque in Ft-lbf against Hp on the same scale. Plot them on different scales or try metric units and you can make them cross where ever you want. 5252 is meaningless.
Oh but they do, and of course on the same scale. Ft lbs vs hp on the x vs RPM on the y, its just a math problem., metric or SAE make no difference. I would be interested to see a hp tq curve of a crank shaft engine, where they dont cross at 5252.
Piston engine, electric motor, turboprop etc., the math is the same. Perhaps the rules of magic and engine Vodoo are different in the rest of the world where they use metric. The metric world must all have stupid conversations on the internet about 9,550 RPM being some magic RPM. I guess that's why all their crap rev's to 13K.

Note everything is plotted on the same scale, check the math if you want.
N-m stand for Newton Meters, 1 ft-lbf = 1.356 N-m.
Kilowatts is a very popular measure of Power, 1 Hp = 0.7457 kW

Image
This is so wrong as to be laughable. You clearly do not know what you are talking about. If you were to provide scales in proper increments, you would see that the relationship remains the same. Your graph has, for example, 600 HP equivalent to 600 KW as well as 600 Ft-Lbs equivalent to 600 N-M. It just isn't so and this graph, wherever you found it, or perhaps you made it up, is junk.
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by kwanjangnihm » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:04 pm

Every-time I graph these numbers I get the same results!! :stirpot:
Torque Calc.PNG
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by Slidin Gator » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:21 pm

ryansmoneypit wrote:I can see how it might work out different in metric, now. but the HP vs tq equation remains the same.
digginfool wrote:This is so wrong as to be laughable. You clearly do not know what you are talking about. If you were to provide scales in proper increments, you would see that the relationship remains the same. Your graph has, for example, 600 HP equivalent to 600 KW as well as 600 Ft-Lbs equivalent to 600 N-M. It just isn't so and this graph, wherever you found it, or perhaps you made it up, is junk.
I actually do know exactly what I am talking about and if you would spend more than 1 second looking at the graph you will see that 600 Hp does not equal 600 kW, I just set 2 scales to be the same because I thought that would best show the point (Ryan seemed to be hung up on scales being the same). I didn't pull the graph off the internet, I made it using actual, basic match. I used to think that math was the one thing in the universe that is non-negotiable, but apparently it is.

It is a graph of constant torque of 500 Ft-lbf and the resulting Hp plotted against RPM on the left hand scale. I also plotted N-m against kw on the right hand scale. Note that the N-m line is at 500 ft-lb * 1.356 = 678 N-m. I can change the scales to be whatever you want but it won't change the answer. Perhaps I should change the scale so 678 on the right hand side matches 500 on the left, if that will make you happy it's easy enough to do??? It does not matter, the answer will still be the same, N-M and Kw cross at 9,550 RPM.

Why? Because the formula for power in this set of metric units is kW = N-M * RPM/9,549. Therefore, in metric units, they always cross at 9,549 RPM for the exact same reason power and torque cross at 5252 RPM in SAE units. They are just units, I can make up all kinds of different units that provide the same information, but cross at different RPM's

Perhaps both of you should go and actually watch the video at the link that Ryan posted, the dude says exactly the same things as me, almost as if he actually read and understood my post.

I know it is difficult to swallow when your religious leaders have told you that pork is bad ever since you were a kid and some guy walks in and tells you pork is good. But pork is actually good, but I'm not gonna make you eat it.

Watch the whole thing, not just the first half that confirms your religious beliefs.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/111 ... t-5252-rpm

So explain why 5252 means anything other than Ft-Lbf and Hp cross at 5252 RPM on a graph? Other than a good QC check that the graph is right it is otherwise meaningless.
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by Slidin Gator » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:34 pm

Simplifying things for clarity. Deleted the SAE figures, just metric. Do you dispute the following? 500 Ft-lbs, converted to 678 N-m and plotted against kw.

Image
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Re: LOW TORQUE LS Engine Build

Post by Deano » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:29 am

Sorry Mr. Gator, but this time the nod goes to the Diggin' Fool.
Yes, I do in fact dispute your graph, in spite of your misconception of it 'simplifying things'.

1) Torque is a measurement of rotational force, (Ft/Lbs). PERIOD.

2) The formula for determination of HP, is calculated by taking the first parameter TORQUE,
and adding the additional parameter of that force over time, (RPMs). PERIOD.

3) Hence, the formula for CALCULATING HP is: TORQUE (Ft/Lbs) x RPM / 5252

To say that 5252 is not relevant to HP, is not only blatantly wrong; but it is impossible because 5252 is part
of the calculation to derive the HP number from the the TWO parameters used, those being TORQUE and TIME.

Switching your example case from SAE to Metric does nothing to change the definition of HP; only the units of measure.
HP is sill derived from the two variables Torque and Time, along with constant 5252.
Slidin Gator wrote:Simplifying things for clarity. Deleted the SAE figures, just metric. Do you dispute the following? 500 Ft-lbs, converted to 678 N-m and plotted against kw.
Image
What is BS about this graph is NOT the constant in the HP formula being wrong at 5252, but rather, the
implication that ALL parameters were converted to Metric BEFORE the (supposedly metric) graph was constructed.

Your error was in this statement:
Slidin Gator wrote: . . . Deleted the SAE figures, just metric. . .
Hint . . . ft/lbs of Torque is NOT A METRIC measurement (and has no place on or near this graph).
The proper nomenclature for that graph label would NOT be Ft/Lbs, but conversely, Torque should be labeled as Newton/Meters.

While I understand what you attempted to convey in your dissertation to Diggin's last post, you will have to admit that while switching units of measure might be allowable, you CAN NOT MIX UNITS OF MEASURE on the same graph and make ANY credible point.

While it WOULD be correct to say that 5252 is not a relevant number when using METRIC units of measure, to simply
claim 5252 is not relevant would be blatantly WRONG, since most here think and work with SAE measurements by default.
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