ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussion

A general, non-powerplant specific, discussion on airboat technology, ie., hulls, rigging, polymer, etc..
WTFover
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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by WTFover »

I would also mention that various interwebz sites are claiming that the bellhousing bolt pattern is common between the high feature and the ecotec. I've never checked, but if true and there is a specific gearbox developed for the Ecotec, than it might work on the high feature V6 as well.

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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by WaterWalker »

WTFover wrote:Hello everyone, I just joined this site the other day to peruse because I am thinking about jumping in and buying an airboat soon, but I saw this thread and felt compelled to comment. I am very familiar with the Ecotec as they are pretty common in the off road buggy world (my other hobby). I have built and tuned half a dozen of them already, from basic swaps to porting cylinder heads, cam swaps and tuning with HP Tuners. These are great little motors. We beat the stuffing out of them and they don't ever miss a lick. The early model year variants are incredibly easy to wire, but if I was going to buy one, I would be looking at an LE5 (2.4 NA) motor to start with. With all that being said, I am curious why no one seems to have looked at the late model "high feature" 3.6 GM Direct Injected V6 as a better alternative? They are starting to get a lot of traction in the buggy world, because they are pretty cheap, (I have seen as low as $1200) plentiful, ~300HP stock, and are not much larger in both weight and physical size than the ecotec, (might even be shorter than an Eco) when coupled with the newer style composite intake. The newer ones also have the integrated exhaust manifold, so no headers required, just a 2.5" pipe straight of the cylinder head. I am probably going LS, because I have one here out of a project car and I need a big boat to bring the wife and kids out on, but it is probably worth some investigation.
Kind Regards,
Jason
Jason:

Some technical/practical advice & help please, if you would?

I am currently designing a new belt driven Propeller Speed Reduction Unit (PSRU) for airboats. An airboater would refer to it as a 'Belt Drive Unit'. So far after much looking, I have been un-able to locate published accurate transmission bell housing bolt & guide pins X/Y co-ordinate locations, (the Bolt Patterns) for the EcoTech and newer High Feature GM V-6 engines. Do you have them or could you direct me where to find them on the internet?

Also, Plum, Andrew and myself of Water Walker Props, Inc. are planning to re-engine a previous 'Concept Airboat' with the newer GM V-6 engine. Could you direct us specifically to where we could purchase one of these newer in-expensive GM V-6 engines that you speak of?

Thanks in advance,

David Wine
Water Walker props, Inc.

462kwells
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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by 462kwells »

My LS3 is 600 HP doing the same math 1725lb / 600hp = 2.87 lb per hp lets look at one of Waterthunders typical LS3 engines and use the same math 1725lb / 550hp = 3.13 lb per hp, no funny math here this is simply apples for apples,, no mistake there is no substitute for cubic inches and if you put 550 or 600hp it a 4cy engine how long will it last !!!

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ptr34
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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by ptr34 »

I will tell u real soon. Making 420 hp
if u don't run dry .then should have gotten a bassboat
tons videos on YouTube ptr34

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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by Outlawaircraftengines »

Just a question, but how much horsepower are you loosing through the box?
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WTFover
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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by WTFover »

Jason:

Some technical/practical advice & help please, if you would?

I am currently designing a new belt driven Propeller Speed Reduction Unit (PSRU) for airboats. An airboater would refer to it as a 'Belt Drive Unit'. So far after much looking, I have been un-able to locate published accurate transmission bell housing bolt & guide pins X/Y co-ordinate locations, (the Bolt Patterns) for the EcoTech and newer High Feature GM V-6 engines. Do you have them or could you direct me where to find them on the internet?

Also, Plum, Andrew and myself of Water Walker Props, Inc. are planning to re-engine a previous 'Concept Airboat' with the newer GM V-6 engine. Could you direct us specifically to where we could purchase one of these newer in-expensive GM V-6 engines that you speak of?

Thanks in advance,

David Wine
Water Walker props, Inc.[/quote]


I found a diagram to the ecotec bolt pattern, I will dig around and see if I can find something to verify the V6 pattern. You can search on car-part.com for engines, plenty of auto recyclers out there too have them. They are found in quite a few of the sedans, and SUV's throughout the GM lineup The best one to look for is a 2012+ LFX, it has the composite intake and integrated exhaust manifold and is rated at ~320 HP. You can find a comprehensive list of vehicles that the engine came in on the wikipedia site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine#LFX A quick check on car-part shows an average price of $2k for the LFX. You are going to need to get the harness and do some work on it or there are a few vendors out there that have reworked harnesses available and ready to go, if you don't want to roll your own.

bellhousing patttern here: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Arch ... 03406.html


I hope that helps.

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ptr34
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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by ptr34 »

I can make 420 hp with 4 cylinder . Y add more weught
if u don't run dry .then should have gotten a bassboat
tons videos on YouTube ptr34

WTFover
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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by WTFover »

ptr34 wrote:I can make 420 hp with 4 cylinder . Y add more weight
The weight for an LFX is right around 350-360 lbs, shipped according to GM, that includes a flexplate, not sure what else is included in that, but lets assume that's a realistic # because it's somewhere in between an Ecotec and an LS. Assuming the prop, gearbox and radiator are a wash between the two weight wise, that's pretty reasonable and not that far off from a turbo ecotec if you consider the turbocharger, intercooler +piping, that you don't have with the V6. The V6 and Ecotec are typically offered in the same vehicle so the space constraints are somewhat similar. If anything the V6 might be a hair shorter. As far as why would someone, opt for one vs. the other there is some value to someone grabbing a bone stock engine that meets all their performance and economy targets and runs it for say a $3k total investment in the engine. To keep it apples to apples, what does a 420HP ecotec cost (minus gearbox, prop, fuel system, and all other items that would be common to both swaps)? Like I said earlier, I love the ecotec platform, but I do not know if I want to depend on something to get me home that's running at twice it's rated output. If you go through the motor, and put good rods and pistons and fasteners in it, what does that add to the overall cost?

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ptr34
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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by ptr34 »

Main problem with them is the wiring and where they make the power and getting them tuned for a airboat application. And same 2.4 motor can make 350hp for $6800 that come turnkey minus radiator with a one year warranty tuned for a airboat. The LFX only makes 323 hp @ 6800 and 278 tq @4800 not the best rpm range for airboats. And like most of the direct injection ecotec not all the code is broken for complete 100% tuning of motors. Just what I have learned as we have gotten more into the Ecotecs.Like most motors straight out of cars dont make the best airboat engine. Different cams and what not go into car motors to make the power in the right spot for airboats. But im always up to see something different on a airboat..Thats why we are building a ecotec ride boat as we speak. 6800 rpm is alot of rpms to make 323hp
http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/lfx/
if u don't run dry .then should have gotten a bassboat
tons videos on YouTube ptr34

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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by JB550 »

Terry that is exactly why I love my 2.0 ltg turbo. Max torque is at 1700 rpm and is stays that way till 5800 rpm. I am loving this motor more every time I take it out and it is bone stock with a performance tune. I fully expect this motor to last for many years with no problems and no maintenance other than oil changes.

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ptr34
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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by ptr34 »

hope to be riding with u by end of year on my ecotec family ride boat
if u don't run dry .then should have gotten a bassboat
tons videos on YouTube ptr34

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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by JT540 »

I got a question on the 6800rpm range if the motor is designed to turn the high rpms then it seem like you would want to run a 3.1 gear box that would keep the motor in its power range and keep the big props in there sweet spot! now my other question is what would the power output be on one of those v6 motors when turbo charged? just fyi I have no interest in getting one im just gear head curious!
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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by chuckitt@earthlink.net »

The older engine/transmission bolt patterns are not the same as the newer ones for the 6 speed and 8 speed transmissions. Like the LNF/LHU/LDK is the same on the 06 to 2013 and can fit the 6 speed autotrans. The 2013/2015 LTG has a diff bolt pattern and is for the 8 speed autotran. The LFX 3.6L V6 may be the same bolt pattern as the LNF/LHU/LDK, I don't know, I haven't checked. I do know the new Twin Turbo 3.6L V6 is an all new casting and is coupled to the new 8 speed auto transmission. So I don't think the Transmission bolt pattern is the same. I have been looking for one in a wreaked car for about a year. I guess the people that own them are safe drivers.
I know a boat with the LFX 3.6L V6 can be built for a minimum of 3000.00 dollars less than the turbo Ecotecs. Just haven't had anyone ask for one. I don't think the HP rating at high rpm's has much to do with a VVT engine that brings in high torque at low rpm's. That is why the small Ecotec engines can turn such large props. That is just what an airboat needs, high torque at low rpm's.
David Wine is looking for the bolt pattern for the Twin Turbo V6.
Thanks, Chuck

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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by bowidmann@gmail.com »

I have a 0360 lycoming, it's 60 +\- years old and will go places an ecoterd wishes

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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by OneBFC »

I have a 0360 lycoming, it's 60 +\- years old and will go places an ecoterd wishes
No, you dont......seriously.
-Russ
-----------------------------------
The only thing stopping you is FEAR
400+hp Ecotec, 12x7.6 DBDO, 80" 3B Maximus, 2.3 OX,85+mph, water = purely optional
Life begins at 2 BAR, Just a good ole boy

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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by strokin05ct »

Onebfc: I love it, haters will hate no matter what. An 0360 that can go places a Eco turd can't? Please! And after 60 years that motor is due for a rebuild most definately, it's probably already been rebuilt 2-3 times at a cost of over 5k$! I don't think I've ever seen a 60 year old 0-360 swing a 78" Maximus 3 blade, pushing 7 people accross the green. Lol just saying.

I'm excited to complete my build and ride with the "Ecoturd" group one day soon!
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06 Hamant 13'

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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by chuckitt@earthlink.net »

I think the LFX 3.6L Ecotec would be a perfect engine for a 13 ft boat. It's torque curve is almost flat. 80% of max torque at only 1200 rpm's. Tell me of any engine that does that. Max torque at 4900. Perfect for a 2.37 to one gear reduction. Our performance tune should get the torque to 300 ft lbs X the 2.37 reduction = 711 ft lbs on the prop shaft. Over 200 ft lbs more than a caddy DD. Don't need any airboat tune are change of cams.
Chuck

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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by jwoodl01 »

Here you go strokin... This ol' boys toting around 11 with his little Lycoming.

http://youtu.be/uIpNUDD8mko
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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by lariat »

jwoodl01 wrote:Here you go strokin... This ol' boys toting around 11 with his little Lycoming.

http://youtu.be/uIpNUDD8mko
I used to say; "It aint always who has the best motor, It is who has the best slick bottom!" Although that video is impressive, I'd bet that 'Ol saying is applicable for it.

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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by WaterWalker »

WTFover
Jason:

Thanks for the link to a blog that did show a co-ordinate layout of the EcoTech bolt pattern layout for the bell housing. It matched an adaptor plate that Chuckett @ Airboat Pros has loaned me.

Chuckitt:

I took that adaptor plate to a machine shop that had a computerized laser reader and got its' profile and hole co-ordinates reduced to a digitized file. Accurate to several thousandths. The published co-ordinates shown in the blog found by Jason matched reasonably well so I have adapted those published numbers as likely accurate for my CAD work.

OneBFC
Russ:

If interested, send me your current email address and I'll send you an update on the design to date.

To all else out there, I am still needing the exact bolt pattern for the Twin Turbo V6 engine that Chuckitt mentions in the above recent post. I hope to have a bell housing custom cast to receive a new belt drive unit. I would like to have it be a universal pattern that would fit the current line of four cylinder EcoTech engines and the twin turbo V6 ones. Need some help with this.

Thanks,

David Wine
Working to make airboating better

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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by DynaMarine »

David - I think the trouble you will have with a multi-fit universal bellhousing is that the starter locations are different on the (2), what I'll call "old" and "new" Ecotec motors which is why we decided to make 2 separate bellhousing but use the same gearcase.

Chuck - Here's a link to a low-milage LFX out of California. http://www.lkqonline.com/partdetail/~98 ... tmentempty. It's the highest HP and TQ out of the group of engines as well. Maybe you and David can pick this engine up and knock out that belt drive setup. Be a cool setup I'm sure and would look nice infront of the direct fit gearbox when we make one :thumbleft:
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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by ptr34 »

Chuck where u get that tq number . 1200 gm website must be wrong. They say its 4800 rpm is max so its 222 ft at 80 % of max tq @ 1200
if u don't run dry .then should have gotten a bassboat
tons videos on YouTube ptr34

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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by DynaMarine »

The torque curve is definitely flat, no doubt about that.

Won't let me upload the pic, so here's the link to the dyno I found on the Camaro engine.

http://gmpowertrain.com/2014_images/cha ... camaro.jpg
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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by WTFover »

WaterWalker wrote:WTFover
Jason:

Thanks for the link to a blog that did show a co-ordinate layout of the EcoTech bolt pattern layout for the bell housing. It matched an adaptor plate that Chuckett @ Airboat Pros has loaned me.

Chuckitt:

I took that adaptor plate to a machine shop that had a computerized laser reader and got its' profile and hole co-ordinates reduced to a digitized file. Accurate to several thousandths. The published co-ordinates shown in the blog found by Jason matched reasonably well so I have adapted those published numbers as likely accurate for my CAD work.

OneBFC
Russ:

If interested, send me your current email address and I'll send you an update on the design to date.

To all else out there, I am still needing the exact bolt pattern for the Twin Turbo V6 engine that Chuckitt mentions in the above recent post. I hope to have a bell housing custom cast to receive a new belt drive unit. I would like to have it be a universal pattern that would fit the current line of four cylinder EcoTech engines and the twin turbo V6 ones. Need some help with this.

Thanks,

David Wine
I have exhausted my resources for locating the High Feature bellhousing pattern. The only other thing I could recommend is buying an LLT or LFX engine or AY6 bellhousing and using a CMM tool to plot out the bellhousing, or buying an adapter from Kennedy Engineering and doing the same.

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Re: ECOTEC vs SBC vs O-540, A Power to Weight Ratio Discussi

Post by dak10 »

I still cant understand how anyone can compare and 83 cubic inch engine to ANY aircraft engine. all I know is my 83 cubes will go any where I choose to go with a load of camping gear for the weekend an hail my fire wood to an still have gas to ride all weekend.
and I don't got to stop and check the gas an add oil or let it cool down
so I understand people like there aircraft engine but I bet u cant ride like I do for lets say 10 years and only change the oil I do like ac but the fuel is way out of hand I spent 25.00 on fuel for two days of hard riding bet u ac guys cant do that
and that's why I only see the ac riders once a week if I do u stopped for fuel I ride with some friends that have air craft engine and they are liking what 83 cubic inches can do

ride what u like we are all friends in the swamp

just saying :stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot:

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