I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

A general, non-powerplant specific, discussion on airboat technology, ie., hulls, rigging, polymer, etc..
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Slidin Gator
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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Slidin Gator » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:37 pm

CarMotorBarge wrote: Well car motor guys definitely don't pay high dollars for used parts like A/C guys do. :shock: With the competition in the SBC, BBC, and LS markets, car motor guys are able to buy NEW parts at COMPETITIVE prices. This definitely doesn't happen in the A/C market. :stirpot:

So adding a 1.5 ratio gearbox to an A/C engine so you can make 50% more prop shaft TORQUE is losing your balls? :dontknow: So is it all about TORQUE or not? :shock:
CMB, no doubt the AC market is used, but it is generally quality. Regardless, cost is not my primary driver, not even the cost of fuel. I'm 1 hour minimum from legal running, I want a boat that runs right when I get there and brings me home, reliability is #1 for me. My present motor ran 4 miles of ground with a quarter size hole in #6 cylinders 2 years ago, no skeeters around me then. Replaced the cylinder in 2 days and back running, just got all the parts out of the pan last weekend. That makes the balls feel larger.

Putting a 1.5 ratio gear box on my present AC motor would probably result in throwing a rod out the pan leaving me twiddling thumbs 1-1/2 hours from home on a Sunday night. Sounds like Experimental Ball Removal Surgery to me, EBRS for short, see how close to EPRB that is?

Real men think about stuff like this. :idea:
Seven3 wrote:This feud you guys are having is both hilarious and entertaining, lol. But it seems like it’s all in good fun. I know this is more of a HP vs TQ debate than a CM vs AC, but in the end that’s what it ends up being. IMO it all comes down to the size of the boat you need to power. 12 foot and under, generally speaking you need AC. 15 foot and over, generally speaking you need CM. 13-14 foot is really where you can go either way. I’m an AC guy, but I admit that if you need to spin a big prop on a big boat, you need a CM. Sure you get can go with an 0-720 or a GSO-540 or 480, but those things cost so much to run.
Seven3, Glad we could keep you entertained! On the CM vs. AV subject, that is exactly the reason I posted my thread in the Airboat Tech forum as opposed to the Aviation only forum. As the thread title says, I am building 2 boats, identical hulls. But I am not building 2 identical boats, Ghost is gonna be AV for sure, Boat #2 remains undecided. Your point about the 12-14 foot range being the "either way" range is pretty spot on in my case.

I love the hull, it's perfect for my primary use. The narrow width decreases the amount of ground it has to run over/through and 14 feet of length makes a huge difference on the ride vs. a 12 foot boat. The extra length also let's me haul extra weight up front, like dogs on the nose. It actually runs easy dry with 2 people at about the same RPM as on plane in deep water (2,000-2,300). So eliminating weight is driven more by the boat's performance in deep water, but it will help dry for sure too. Hull is 7' wide total, but it's only 5 feet of flat at the transom with 1 foot of roll on each side, so every pound on the transom sinks the rear a lot more than flat bottom, 7-1/2 - 8' boats. Everything is a trade off, in my case tilted more towards ground vs. deep water.

Ghost, Boat #1 is gonna be AV with a 500 Ft-Lbf straight valve 540 Engine that makes about 260 Hp at 2,800 on the prop. The original boat as is runs very well. But as I am trying to document, it has been hauling quite a load. Ghost is gonna run like the same boat less one of my larger buddies and his extra cooler.

Moving on to the future, I want more outa Boat #2. I think CMB really summarizes the argument well in this quote (stolen from his Low Torque thread):
CarMotorBarge wrote: The debate you get into on an airboat is whether you should shift the torque curve to the left or the right on a dyno sheet and what gear ratio you should use. The LOW TORQUE LS Engine build in this thread will be shifting the torque curve to the right. Max HSP will be at 7,000 RPMs and a 2.88 gear will be used.
Honestly, I have no idea why someone would build a 7,000 RPM motor and only make 400 Hp, if you just cut off the gas and leave the throttle open the damn thing will probably keeps pushing for a couple seconds just from crank inertia. It's probably gonna need a secondary containment diaper to keep the EBRS in check (see above). I Seriously, I hope CMB has plans to turn that egg beater into a 650 Hp machine soon after our competition (maybe for round #2), otherwise it seems like a hell of a lot of effort just to shut me up.:stirpot:

At the start of the thread I said that Boat #2 was going to be 600 Ft-lbf minimum and less than 400 Hp. I am gonna try to keep things down, but staying under 400 Hp may be an issue. I intend to make maximum use of the prop torque curve and explain why. I do not want #2 to weigh more than the Ugly Duck. Deleting 150 lbs or so of rigging and switching to a single rider rear gives me a good bit of weight to work with.

Maximum prop limited to 76" and torque roll limit maximum reasonable power. Reliability, range and running quiet are also big goals. I don't give a crap how much fuel the boat burns, as long as it meets my other goals. I love the sound of a muffled AV motor just doing it's thang. I have also seen some real quiet CM boats that impressed me. But those damn loud a** high RPM CM race boats are getting us all run off good land, now and in the future.

In summary, I have 2 hulls to compare power plants side by side. One may be a AV or a CM and it may or may not have a low ratio gear box on it. One is gonna be high Torque, the other is gonna be higher torque. Time to come up with a name for #2, "Torque Ghost", "TorqueAGator", "MomentArm". Hmm....
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by kwanjangnihm » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:32 am

Slidin Gator wrote: In summary, I have 2 hulls to compare power plants side by side. One may be a AV or a CM and it may or may not have a low ratio gear box on it. One is gonna be high Torque, the other is gonna be higher torque. Time to come up with a name for #2, "Torque Ghost", "TorqueAGator", "MomentArm". Hmm....
its only fitting that if you use a CM engine on your second boat to name it appropriately "#2" :toothy7:
" I don't care who you are back in the world, you give away our position one more time, I'll bleed ya, real quiet. Leave ya here. Got that? "

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by hdsadey » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:40 am

Put a stroked out Windsor on #2 and it might become #1 lol. Seriously I'm getting about the same power out of my 408 as a 540 straight valve and with less weight! Fixing to change up the injection system to pull some more power out if my theory is correct!
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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Slidin Gator » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:41 pm

kwanjangnihm wrote:its only fitting that if you use a CM engine on your second boat to name it appropriately "#2" :toothy7:
Not a bad name, probably not the best though. I'm sure I deserve this.
hdsadey wrote:Put a stroked out Windsor on #2 and it might become #1 lol. Seriously I'm getting about the same power out of my 408 as a 540 straight valve and with less weight! Fixing to change up the injection system to pull some more power out if my theory is correct!
I don't think less weight is correct, unless something got lighter. Maybe similar weight, isn't this dry?

Image

Same number as I got, but what is the 408 missing?
Oil
Anti-Freeze
Radiator
Headers
Starter
Alternator
Carb
Prop Hub adapter and Hub
etc. etc.

This is all in, full of oil, headers (stuck on top), prop hub ready to run. Add 21.5 lbs for oil cooler and cooling shroud and it is complete.

Image
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by hdsadey » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:17 pm

Ok well maybe I'm a little overzealous. lol . Never weighed it with all the rest of the stuff. I will weigh it when it comes off to go on the new hull complete. She was full of oil at 439.5. It's close but not close! haha
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92 Big O 13' Ford 408 Windsor DD Dry Runnin MOFO!
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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by OneBFC » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:42 pm

Since we are posting weights....
IMG_20190304_161440.jpg
click picture and zoom in to barely see weight. it reads 454lb.

full of oil, with ox drive, engine mounts, wire harness, ecm, catch can, radiator overflow tank, adapter plate and big turbo with steel center section. add 20 for radiator and misc junk. remove 20 for newer version of turbo with alum center section.

This engine produces between 400 and 500hp and has extremely good throttle response (not lazy)

It's no LS, but it is also $750 to $1500 from a bone yard with 20 to 30k miles.

600+ hrs on mine since 2012. It ran through the mostly dry and sticky marsh this past Saturday from hole in wall to milk bus @ 1030am to 1100AM, not any dew left really. No sprayer, no slick bottom. 3500 to 4200rpm in dry spots. mostly 3800.

Just another reference point....

Oh, bare engine with stock turbo is 321lbs.

I hope you do give a different platform a try for your 2nd boat.
I know you favor simplicity for reliability reasons. But, only thing that's broken over this time period is a starter and a cracked flex plate. combined that's under $100 in parts.
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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Slidin Gator » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:44 pm

Thanks BFC, that is useful information. Hopefully more folks will supply similar information for comparison.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Rick McC. » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:35 pm

I zoomed in on the screen, and got 456 pounds.
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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Slidin Gator » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:07 pm

Rick McC. wrote:I zoomed in on the screen, and got 456 pounds.
Yep, Rick is right!

So I have gotten the Engine stand and fuel tank all repainted and received my new (used) engine mounts. On receipt I noticed that they had 7/16" bolts, the original equipment, vs the 1/2" bolts and mount holes on the engine stand. So I gave my old units a good eyeball and saw that they had been drilled out to 1/2"previously. So all the mounts and the spacer tubes needed to be enlarged.

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I had 2 good spacer tubes from the old set, so I re-used them. In between the 2 mount pairs is a "football" full of viscous silicone goo that absorbs vibrations. The spacer tube runs on the ID of the "Football". I started with one of the previously drilled out spacer tubes, pushed it up against the one inside the "Football". Gave it all a good shot of silicone spray and slid the football and goo from one tube to the other.

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Some of the goo had to be shoved back under the lip of the football
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Put it all together. No nose mount, 4 mounts, just like they do in an airplane.

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Engine (with prop hub), Engine stand, oil & fuel filters. About 80 lbs for the Engine stand, not the lightest, but you can't argue with 30 years of no failure.

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I am always nervous until I put oil in the pan, I'm sure everyone can imagine a story why. Filled her up with oil, hooked up an oil cooler bypass hose, pulled plugs and ran her up to 60 PSI of oil pressure on the starter. Good to go.

Image
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Slidin Gator » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:33 pm

Put the package into the old hull - Transport position.

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Here is the old seat stand. 126 lbs on the scale just in steel. The thing is definitely strong and rigid. I was constantly tightening the stand to hull mount screws, the hull flexes, the stand didn't. The local scrapper must have been on a bender for a couple of weeks, the cage has been sitting by the road for a bit. After adding all this steel as a sweetener, someone grabbed it yesterday.

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Took the motor and stand to Trevor's Sunday for the swap over. I think the new rigging is gonna flex with the hull better, certainly gonna be lighter.
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Ghost is coming together and in Trevor's hands for a bit. Time to start busting poly rivets and prepping the red hull.

The original rudder is pretty beat, but salvageable. Gonna have to get a set of replica decals made for sure. Remember when the 407 area code covered Orlando to Palm Beach!

Image
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by lariat » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:43 pm

I really enjoy following along with this. Thanks for taking the time to share.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Slidin Gator » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:50 pm

lariat wrote:I really enjoy following along with this. Thanks for taking the time to share.
Thanks Lariat, I guess the time is spent better than talking to myself.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Slidin Gator » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:25 pm

Stripped the Polymer off hull #2 yesterday. This picture shows the bubble where the poly was pulling off the rivets.

Image


Found an easy way to remove the poly for sure, just stood on the hull and peeled the poly like a Dolphin fish.
Image

Image


Found the bottom to be in much better shape than I feared. The interior is much more corroded, thanks to it's previous life as a spray boat.

Image


It has one area that needs some work. This hull is going to get coated with Steel Flex and will get new poly. I am thinking about giving it a 3/4 deck over to better handle a 76" prop without raising it too high.

Image


Certainly looks a lot better than this welded hull that belongs to one of my son's Buddy's. This hull was stripped in the shop last week. My hull is 0.100" riveted 7075, 30 years old. This hull is 0.125 welded, probably 15 years old. Soft aluminum just does not take the beating like hardened, riveted material. The sheeting is welded together along the center runner, so that is the weakest area due to all the heat. The pictures show that the middle runner is pushed up above the 2 runners either side.

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The damn thing is wrecked, its gonna take a butt load of work to make this hull run right again. It had 2 holes worn through the polymer, right where the two runners jut out like sled rails. He said black mud was like glue to this boat, you think!

Image
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Seven3 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:10 pm

Those welded boats look like that very quickly if you run any dry. I’ve seen a welded aluminum boat that was only 6 months old that looked just like your buddies hull. You get what you pay for.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Slidin Gator » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:32 pm

We're getting there.

Image

The new shroud should really help with the cooling. Extra cage ribs for runnin the trees.

Image
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by radtech » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:00 am

Lookin good, Brother!

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by kwanjangnihm » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:53 pm

SG any updates on your boats? :salute:
" I don't care who you are back in the world, you give away our position one more time, I'll bleed ya, real quiet. Leave ya here. Got that? "

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Slidin Gator » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:11 pm

Getting close. Original plan was to have it ready for this weekend, but work, rain, Dorian, gator and bow season have slowed things down. Trevor Booth did a great job on the rigging and grass rake and he didn't screw around getting it done either. The boy and I got the rigging primed with 2 part epoxy and the cage wire done before Dorian threatened. Was hoping for dry weather this weekend to finish the paint so we can roll this one up, but it looks like mama nature has other plans. Guess I'll go sway in my tree stand this weekend while the weather is good. This time of year you are gonna get wet from sweat or rain, I prefer wind and rain over heat.

Total weight of the bare rigging is 153 lbs, so I am loosing 150-200 lbs vs. the heavy ass rigging that was on the old boat. The net difference is my weight budget adder for the motor and deck over job on the next boat, so looking good there for sure! I am thinking about a bubble deck over on the second hull to give it a tall profile and a lot of interior room. It should be a unique look with the high sides.

I should be able to dodge enough work this next week to finish up the paint. Rigging and wire are all getting gloss black 2 part urethane. I have not decided on the rudder, either gloss black or flat gray. I wanted to make the foot plates gray but I have just enough black Gator Guard 2 part epoxy bed liner that needs to be used up, so that is the plan there. The grass rake is gonna stay un painted for now, but I do have some gator glide to put on the underside when I have the time. She is not intended to be a show boat. The goal is to make the boat plain jane forget-able, hence the name Ghost. I'm more of a sleeper kind of guy.

The first pic was everything safely stored in the shop for Dorian.

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I really like the grass rake, Trevor used bent C channel sections vs. structural shapes, keeps some weight down.

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Trevor's wife Michelle did a great job on my jump seat, matching the other seats I had. This boat will have a removable jump seat on the bow for gator/fish gigging. Who knows, my dogs are probably gonna fight over who gets to sit in it otherwise.

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We are definitely gonna be slidin soon! I certainly recommend Trevor Booth for your Palm Beach Hull boat needs, good work at a fair price and no screwing around. I gave the man a decent down payment and he gave me a good product at a fair price, just as it should be.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by L.H.Cracker » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:21 am

Boats lookin sweet Slidin Gator.My boat is simply a huntin tool as well, I mainly hog hunt with my dogs and I'm lookin to get some new riggin built soon, Light and Strong.Looks like Mr. Booth does fine work if you don't mind sharing his contact info I'd appreciate it.

Thanks good luck and stay safe.
:florida: 13'6" J.B. S.V.0540 10:1 :rebel:

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by John Fenner » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:26 am

You will not regret the stossel hull, all were built with 7075 T-6 as any real boat should be, great hulls with many out there for over 30 years, welded hulls are way overrated but folks still buy them, not sure why.
I never finish anyth,,,.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Rich Andrews » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:52 am

Agree John nothing like the feel of a 7075 boat hitting everything it goes over :) especially the good ones. I will say though after many yrs of not taking it EZ on my old welded hull it never cracked and more than likely because the guy behind the torch did a fine job. i think the consumer demand and long lead time on rivited boats has been the biggest decision maker of lots of people who want one ASAP. Im looking forward to being back in a sled though
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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Seven3 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:54 pm

No brainer on going 7075. I’m no hull builder, but I’ve wondered why more people aren’t building their 7075 hulls out of .125. I did some research two years ago before I ordered my new hull, compared weight figures from multiple suppliers, and figured that a 13x7’2 hull made of .125 only weighs about 40 pounds heavier than a .100 hull. Unless you’re building a racer, 40 pounds is just nominal and well-worth the increased hull strength.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Slidin Gator » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:35 am

L.H.Cracker wrote:Looks like Mr. Booth does fine work if you don't mind sharing his contact info I'd appreciate it.
(561) 262-5345, he’s near Okeechobee.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Rich Andrews » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:22 am

Seven3 wrote:No brainer on going 7075. I’m no hull builder, but I’ve wondered why more people aren’t building their 7075 hulls out of .125. I did some research two years ago before I ordered my new hull, compared weight figures from multiple suppliers, and figured that a 13x7’2 hull made of .125 only weighs about 40 pounds heavier than a .100 hull. Unless you’re building a racer, 40 pounds is just nominal and well-worth the increased hull strength.

I'm .125 and it makes perfect sense
I'll have my Manatee burger medium please...just say NObama

14x8 deckover FELBER 397ci.. HP ???..just stay back!!

LOHA is AHOL backwards

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Re: I'm Building 2 Stossel Boats with High Torque Motors

Post by Seven3 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:26 pm

I agree Rich. But if you talk to some guys, they make it sound like a .125 hull weighs exponentially more. I analyze and research before I do almost anything. I figured the difference to be around 40 pounds. Unless you’re building a pure race boat, .125 is the way to go IMO. I know it says “hull weight” below, but that is just for the sheets, not the structure.
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