Trashin' Our Treasure

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Daddy Dave
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Trashin' Our Treasure

Post by Daddy Dave » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:05 pm

Returned late last evening from Lake Kissimmee and from the KRVSA efforts to clean our Treasure. Great effort, once again, KRVSA. Plenty of orange flags flying and the majority of participating boats were muffled.

I witnessed Bobby Corey and three Big Wigs from SFWMD collect TWENTY bags of trash from less than a mile of Bramha Island shoreline. They hardly made a dent. Hard to blame airboaters for that mess as Bramha Island is the only remaining land mass on the Kissimmee Marsh systen that has not moved the high water public access line markers to the new legal limit. This mess comes from mostly Average Joe speck anglers and general boating slobs.

Later that day, we visited Milk Bus, Yacht Club and BS Hill and I was crushed. This IS airboat country. Few orange flags and less than half the boats were muffled. The trash accumulation was amazing. Everywhere you looked, beer cans & beer bottles - whole and broken - were all over the place. What's going on with this? What is the answer?
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deepsea diver
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Post by deepsea diver » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:56 pm

When the people on the lake and river consume plenty of "John Barley" they leave the evidense behind. If you get stopped with 24 empty cans or bottles floating in your ice cold cooler , you are going to be in big trouble. A open container in hand is hard to beat. It's a new breed. They are not participating in any clean up because they are just getting "F" upped. Man I tell you, there is some serious beer drinking going on in central fl. Drink it and throw it out. They don't have to worry about it any more. Some people just are accustome to trash. I feel your PAIN.

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Post by Rich Andrews » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:48 pm

We drink lots of beer, and eat lots of food where we go, and NEVER leave any behind. Littering is for SCUM bags who don't have the respect for the outdoors, and the country we live in. I get so pissed off even when I see cigarette butts fly out the window. Upbringing has a lot to do with it.
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Post by mongose » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:50 pm

As a father and grandfather I teach my son and grandkids to respect others and to clean after themselves, not to drink and drive any motorized vehicle, be a Auto, ATV, Bass Boat or Airboat ever. The behavior we are seeing is learned, nobody is born that way. We are to blame, those are our sons and daughters out there doing it. Soon we may loose the privilege of enjoying nature in its pristine state.
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dblj006
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Post by dblj006 » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:58 pm

Rich Andrews wrote:We drink lots of beer, and eat lots of food where we go, and NEVER leave any behind. Littering is for SCUM bags who don't have the respect for the outdoors, and the country we live in. I get so pissed off even when I see cigarette butts fly out the window. Upbringing has a lot to do with it.


Rich, you have said it all.

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SwampMatt
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Post by SwampMatt » Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:08 pm

I've heard that story also about FWC (or any cop) giving you a hassle because you have a lot of empties.

Maybe we could get a hand from them if they made a point to get the news out there that is fine to have a boat load of dead soldiers.

Think they'd get on board with that? They could define what the open container law really is, and how it does not apply to trash.

IF IT DOES APPLY TO TRASH.... Maybe we need to turn Bonnie loose on that one and try to get that changed, because the state is encouraging littering.

I can't blame the FWC for the thousands of beer cans & bottles out there. That blame rests soley with the one who "got rid of the evidence".

But FWC may have some influence in helping us change people's attitudes over that.

Maybe it's a pipe dream. :(

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Post by Daddy Dave » Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:08 pm

Rarely is the time my airboat does not contain several full ABCs. There is a law agauinst BUI - not one against having a beer \or mixed drink on an airboat.

We were stopped on Friday night on the Ridge by FFWCC, They inspected verything on our boat and we were 15 feet above the nearest water. Were we a vehicle or vessel at that point? The officers - professional, thourough and polite - did not say a word about the full chute bag of cans - except "Thank You for picking it up."

Leaving the evidence in the woods is simply an excuse for something else altogether.

One look just behind the Bus and it makes me want to puke.
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Post by basketcase0302 » Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:57 pm

Big Daddy,

Makes me want to puke too :cry: Same place that bald eagles fly, bass dance in the morning light and fawn's feed at sunset :love4: The water we enjoy should be a place of bliss and beauty.

Collier County down here has a $46.00 ticket for every empty beer can or bottle on board, (vessel or vehicle). Does kinda promote average blue collar workin joe to toss out his empties don't it :cry:

Why can't Florida enact can/bottle deposits like our demographically challenged neighbors to the north do :roll:

Five cents a bottle/can can really help an economy as well as keep our state clean!

Basketcase

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Post by Whitebear » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:17 am

A LEO has a lot of discression given to him. We all and they all know that everyone who breaks the letter of the law doesn't need a ticket or to be arrested. Now felony, thats another story, not much discression there. I have not ever heard of or known anyone being cited for cleaning up and hauling the trash out of the woods. Does anyone here have any FIRST HAND info on this or is it just talk with no source attributed?

There is obviously a difference in a boozer claiming his empties are other folks trash and someone genuinely cleaning up the environment and here is where the officers discression comes in to play.

If the law was changed there would NEVER be an open container, they would all be trash being picked up.

I personally would like to see the fine for llittering hiked so that it makes a significant impact on the offenders ability to purchase containers for a long time to come.

Jus thinking out loud.

Scotty
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Post by cntry141iq » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:25 am

whitebear : I believe the saying is " if you get their wallets ... their heart will follow" . You see it is always that discretionary part that is so troubling ... if they want you they will get you if they like you they let you go ... and that just don't seem fair to me, i shouldn't have to kiss one in the butt to not get a ticket but some of the younger ones just like to prove how much you gonna respect them or else and they are never wrong and if you don't like it i ahve been told well see you in court and by the way I get paid to go ... do you. now you know that just aint right. simply write the rules and enforce them plain and simple don't write the law if you don't wanna enforce it evenly on everyone all the time.
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SwampMatt
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Post by SwampMatt » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:39 am

I agree with you Scotty, but it's the perception on the part of the "boozer" who's tossing them out in the first place. He needs to know that a bilge full of empties is not going to get him in trouble. He ought to know that in fact, they may get him OUT of trouble!

LEO's need to let it be known that if you have 100 empties in your boat, it's not the open containers that are going to get you in trouble. It's you staggering and slurring or whatever.

And that Collier County thing Basket mentioned seems downright WRONG!!! Can a county commission be fined for littering? It sounds like their ordinance just about MANDATES littering!

I've seen this done at the Oak Head (I think it was) where they had some plastic barrels attached to posts. Maybe there are some matching state or SFWMD funds available to make this happen in the kissimmee? I know when I'm out there, I'd take some out of the barrel every time to bring back in in my boat's trash bag.

Problem is - getting the guys to toss into the barrel.

The deposit in cans & bottles is an interesting idea too. Picking some up may help me pay for gas. :) That seems the best one going. It'd have a statewide effect, not just on the waterways.

As for a $teep fine.... I love that idea. But how you gonna enforce that? You have to catch the offender IN THE ACT. :(

matt.

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Whitebear
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Post by Whitebear » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:50 am

Cntry I have been away for a long time, but I have never heard a GFC officer talk that way even among themselves. I can't say the same for Deputies and local LEOs.

I have a pretty high opinion of most FWC officers and know some of them personally. I know Maj. Paul Oulette from the GFC Reserve academy. He was a Lt. then. Hes one fine person and is typical of the officers I met.

I just don't feel threatened by them having discression. I dont know about FWC but when it was GFC they were held to a higher standard than any other LE agency.

I have heard lose talk the bar may have slipped downward some since the merger but its just lose talk, I dont KNOW of any incidents that would let me think that.

That badge costs under $20, its the man behind it that brings value to the institution. There will always be bad individuals in any segment of society but they aren't the norm. I have personally seen GFC weed out officers who were not in line with the levels of professionalism they demanded. I might worry about any other LEO but not a GFC officer.

Think I said way more than I wanted or should have.

Scotty
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Post by basketcase0302 » Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:52 am

Mood,

Lee County enacted the same law down here back in the 80's. Seems to me like it would promote littering to keep "average beer drinking Joe" out of jail?

I'm with you on the gas money thing too! I'm thinking of inventing the first hydrilla/hyacin burning boat on the lakes :D If Rich would just help me get my flux capacitor going first!

Basketcase

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Post by dk9904 » Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:47 am

As far as the trash in these popular hangouts, why dont we try to solve the problem? We could put trash cans out in these area's with a supply of trash bags and when you stop by if it is full than take it back with you and put a empty bag in the can.

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Whitebear
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Post by Whitebear » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:05 am

Over here the .mil folks put a whole box of trashbags in a barrel at a time. All thats needed is fill it up and take the top bag out and theres another under it already waiting.

Not sure if this is a "system" they purchase or if they just found bags that fit the cans.

Food for thought.

Scotty
"The Constitution is not so the government can restrain the people, it is so the people can restrain the government." Patrick Henry
The government cannot give anything --
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Post by dblj006 » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:05 am

Cntry said:
You see it is always that discretionary part that is so troubling ... if they want you they will get you if they like you they let you go ... and that just don't seem fair to me, i shouldn't have to kiss one in the butt to not get a ticket but some of the younger ones just like to prove how much you gonna respect them or else and they are never wrong


It's true, I agree with this, the younger less mature ones are difficult .
It is totally up to their discretion. I was stopped once on Lake Kissimee
during the day. I was in a Bass Tracker and we were going speck fishing.
There were four of us. Two five year old boys and two men in their thirties. This dude read us the riot act. Checked for everything, life preservers, alcohol, licences, asked me fifteen times about the lights (and everytime he refused to let me plug them in and show him that they worked). It was crazy. He even tried to tell us that the boat was not for four people and I had to show him the Coast Guard placard saying four persons or 800lb's. He detained us for over thirty minutes and when we were finally "released" he would not let the one boy ride on the front deck chair. It was on the deck, turned around, facing the driver. So my buddy changed spots with his son and was told by this FWC storm trooper
he wasn't going to ride there either he had to sit on the bottom deck of the boat that he could not ride in the chair while underway. Now since(that Monday after this happened) I know what the law is. No arms and legs over the transom, sides or bow. Don't even have to be sitting.
This FWC had white sidewall hair cut, Oakley shades, Marine Corp brim
and was a condescending (what happens if you step in a bryer patch).
I was lucky I guess. I was legal. Always am. But if this dude could have got me on something he sure would have, he tried very hard.

I know this is a little off subject but it is true and somewhat relevant I think. Now I have been stopped at times by older FWC and always been
treated politely and in a professional manner, but this one guy was having a very bad day and really made ours bad too.

I understand why people do not want to give FWC a reason. And I drink
a whole lot of beer, but I go without on the water. I don't have a problem with people that do. Because I believe in FREEDOM. Independence Day. RIGHT ON! But the trash is a problem. Both the pollution and the people.

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Post by blackpowderscout » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:38 am

Whitebear wrote:Over here the .mil folks put a whole box of trashbags in a barrel at a time. All thats needed is fill it up and take the top bag out and theres another under it already waiting.

Not sure if this is a "system" they purchase or if they just found bags that fit the cans.

Food for thought.

Scotty


As a soldier I can tell you that it's not a system, we 're just lazy sometimes so putting bags at the bottom of the barrel means you don't have to go looking for more later on :wink:

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Whitebear
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Post by Whitebear » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:45 am

I recommend you get to know your regional wildlife officers. Including the Lt. Keep his number in your cell phone and if you have that problem again dial him up and hand the phone to the officer. You need to be legal and right and if you are it will have more effect than 10,000 posts bashing an FWC officer on a forum board.

Always be specific and get a name and IBM or ID number. Go get involved and get to know the regional folks, you'll find them great allies and sincere about solving issues.

They love the outdoors as much as we do, thats why they chose GFC/FWC, it sure wasn't for the pay.

Kids will always be kids and sometimes they have to be reigned in. Let their senior Officers do the reignin in though. Make that call.

Also beware of a defensive or offensive attitude. Just treat them like any other person you meet and you'll be treated with the same deference and respect. We do have civillian law enforcement in our country and contrary to what ya hear in rhetoric sometimes ALL LEOs are civillians. Translated that means there ain't no them and us it means they ARE us.

If they are having a bad day, help make their day better instead of worse.

Scotty
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The government cannot give anything --
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Post by Daddy Dave » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:44 pm

No question, there was a renegade FFWCC officer on regular partol in the Kissimmee Chain until recently. Several SA members know him from personal contact. The chain of command was followed and that officer was reasigned. The system works most times within FFWCC.

Osceola County was / is an entirely differnt matter - particularly when it came to Gardner's Marsh. That's the reason and background for the groundbreraking airboater's rights case of KRVSA v. McNamarra.

Jerry Renney wrote a haunting song about that one.

Seems a very high level state politico had personal ranching interests out there and our wetlands grass was greener than his uplands grass was - so, he moved the fences out into our marsh and his local SOLEO enforced his will. His illegal fence posts still gore more than one airboat hull every year.

The system finally worked in that case, too. But, not until many airboaters were arrested and their boats impounded. Let's celebrate that victory today along with others.

And, let's find a way to get the trash out of our treasures. Thrash bags and recepticles will be discussed this Thursday at the KRVSA monthly meeting. Hope some of you will attend and support. Bartow Civic Center / 7 pm / Thursday.
Last edited by Daddy Dave on Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by K-mac » Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:52 pm

I was born in Brevard Co. nearly fifty years ago, hunted and fished
here all my life. Private property has always been tough to get
legal access to, alot of that access has been lost because of trash
dumping ( more like all of that access has been lost ) I've heard this
from the land owners that never had a problem with folks hunting and fishing, they just wanted respect for their land and their generocity.
This trash dumping will start closing down government owned land
sooner than we might want to believe. I don't claim to know the
secret to controling the actions of other people.But somthing has to
change soon or we all will pay!!! PS. bring out a little more trash
than you take in. Thanks Yall for caring, Kevin.
If the south would'a won we'da had it made!

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Post by Daddy Dave » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:44 am

As I understand the consensus to be, it may be worth a try then to put trash recepticles at the more popular airboat gathering spots and give that approach a shot?

What are the locations around Kissimmee that KRVSA should first consider?
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Post by jdotson » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:29 pm

That may work if there are people to help empty it on a regular basis. I have seen it done in other places but it always drew more trash in a concentrated area. It is sickening to see all the trash being left behind. It wouldn't take much thought from an LEO to figure out if beer cans are a big litter item then BUI crackdown could help the problem. I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in sobriety tests or portable breathalyzers in the future. I know there are a lot of airboaters out there that don't want that kind of problem.

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Post by Daddy Dave » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:46 pm

My guess is that may already be happening or is in the works.

Seems an airboater T boned a pretty significant cypress along the edge of Hatchineha on Saturday morning and had to be airlifted out = rumor is alcohol may have been a factor.

You can bet your new mufflers that trash / evidence of widespread ABC (adult beverage of choice) consumption left in clear view at popular airboat gathering spots will be interpreted as an arrogant challenge.

I try to always bring a full bag or two out of the woods every time I ride - it doesn't take as long to fill 'em up as it used to.

Maybe there's another solution than placing trash recepticles in the marsh - I sure wish someone would clue us in.
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Post by jdotson » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:47 am

Maybe if the lake cleanups were held after holiday weekends it could make a slight difference. It wouldn't stop the amount of trash on the ground but it would decrease the amount of time it was there. Just a thought...

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Post by Daddy Dave » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:09 am

KRVSA already holds two a year. It gets down to participation. I believe the club will hold as many as airboaters will strongly support.

However, I can't believe Kissimmee is the only place this is happening. Cowboy's comments indicate the same thing is happening on the Big Lake and others are saying the St. Johns is suffering a similar treatment.

CCAA is holding their's on Sept. 16.

Guess we are destined to be garbage collectors.
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