"Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

A general, non-powerplant specific, discussion on airboat technology, ie., hulls, rigging, polymer, etc..
User avatar
T. Gaffney
Site Supporter - V
Site Supporter - V
Posts: 727
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:16 pm
Location: Central Florida

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by T. Gaffney » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:06 pm

CarMotorBarge wrote:And thank you to WT for doing the RnD to put all of these components along with the LS engines into a package that maximizes prop efficiency and minimizes noise. Sounds like we are just 1 big happy community. :lol:
Yep...warm and fuzzy! :lol:

No one can deny what Dave has done as far as testing and building LS combos but I was running a 13' demo with a LS and 2.68 before there was a WT. It was built by the same people that put a 2.68 in a gear box too...

Anyhow, I've stirred the pot and highkacked this thread enough. It should be focused on Mr. Whine and what he pioneered.

User avatar
T. Gaffney
Site Supporter - V
Site Supporter - V
Posts: 727
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:16 pm
Location: Central Florida

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by T. Gaffney » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:13 pm

Olf Art wrote:
T. Gaffney wrote:
akblackdawg wrote:I would say, from my observations, Dave should be given credit for the man who really advanced and let people know the advantages of the lower, 2.68 ratio. Bud
You are correct sir. He is definitley the one who invaded the internet with the 2.68 ratio. Do you think the people who developed it did it by accident though?
I'm done with this crap. This is like saying John Force won at Pomona, but he had to use a different set-up to win the Gator Nationals!! What ??
The whole point is that David Wine is a genius. He was/is a pioneer in airboat sound and performance. He comissioned and built an awesome boat to show all of us he was willing to put his money where his mouth is, and he succeeded. He not only built the boat, but he designed and manufactured the Blue Lightning belt drive that it wore, not a gearbox!

Please stop thowing dirt on the whole purpose of this thread ..... to recognize Mr. Wine for his genius. His accomplishments are many and very important to those of us who really give a damn about building quiet boats that will perform too.

Slow down Hoss!

You better go back and read what I said. I never said a word about a noise test or setup. I was commenting on giving credit where it's due. The truth is the truth and it should stay that way. Whether or not it upsets you doesn't concern me in the least.

User avatar
Tony480
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 5277
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:52 pm
Location: lake county

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by Tony480 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:39 pm

Hey Olf,if your trying to give Mr.Wine credit.Then why did you bring up Dave and his so called win at a sound test?Big deal,he won a test.Why doesn't everyone get off Dave's sack?

Olf Art
Site Supporter - VIII
Site Supporter - VIII
Posts: 11851
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Plant City, FL

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by Olf Art » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:02 pm

Tony480 wrote:Hey Olf,if your trying to give Mr.Wine credit.Then why did you bring up Dave and his so called win at a sound test?Big deal,he won a test.Why doesn't everyone get off Dave's sack?
He did win it. On that day Thunder's boat was quieter. I won't hide from the truth. I was there and took the results of the tests. What isn't being being presented here in my opinion is that Mr. David Wine is the very first engineer that took an interest in making airboats quieter ... he was a pioneer in that, and he did it because he saw it as important. He set the standard.

What Thunder did was build a boat that he thought could win that day, and on that day he did. I could care less that he wasn't running a "ride" set-up .... on that one day the object of the game was to see how quiet an airboat could be at 50' on plane. On that one day Thunder won it.

I don't understand anyone taking offense here. I'm one of those people who loves a boat that's so quiet that you can sit on plane and talk. Maybe that's just me, but I will tell you that when you live on a big lake like I did back then, and your neighbors come up to you and tell you that they're amazed at how quiet your boat is, or you pull into a fishcamp and someone tells you that they didn't hear you pull in, for an old man like me who likes quiet and loves airboats, that's a very good feeling.
"I know not what tomorrow may bring, but I know Who brings tomorrow."
Member: KRVSA, FAA, TAA, and life member NRA and VFW

User avatar
Whitebear
Site Supporter - VIII
Site Supporter - VIII
Posts: 16554
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:49 pm
Location: Palm Bay, Fl
Contact:

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by Whitebear » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:16 pm

I see neither offense give or taken either by Mr Wine or Mr Waterthunder. Seems to me the only issue is Tony keeps pushing.

Both these guys are contributors to airboating and both deserve the recognition.

Maybe I missed something, huh?
"The Constitution is not so the government can restrain the people, it is so the people can restrain the government." Patrick Henry
The government cannot give anything --
that they have not first taken from someone else.

User avatar
Tony480
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 5277
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:52 pm
Location: lake county

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by Tony480 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:29 pm

What am I pushing?They talk about giving Mr.Wine credit which he is due.But yet everyone wants to give Dave credit also.

User avatar
aherr520
Site Supporter - III
Site Supporter - III
Posts: 1096
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:42 pm
Location: Paisley

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by aherr520 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:40 pm

didn't someone build a CM boat with a 3:1 gearbox and 5 blade superwide? I would think that would be very queit,but next time there is a sound challange I would like to see my freinds boat enter I'm sure he will win with ease.
aaof member

User avatar
Whitebear
Site Supporter - VIII
Site Supporter - VIII
Posts: 16554
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:49 pm
Location: Palm Bay, Fl
Contact:

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by Whitebear » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:27 pm

I give them both credit for contributing to airboating.
"The Constitution is not so the government can restrain the people, it is so the people can restrain the government." Patrick Henry
The government cannot give anything --
that they have not first taken from someone else.

CarMotorBarge
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 947
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Lake Harney Woods

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by CarMotorBarge » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:24 pm

plumcrazy wrote:wt won a club test, but he wasent a part of the test by fla atlantic university and the fwc it was a more stringent controled a documented test with calabrated sound equipment, i have a certified doucument on the fox boat of 82 at 50 ft with the boat set up as you would run it . the thunder sled was crazy quiet during the competition he won. but in my oppinion it wasent pitched and tuned like he ran it . and a foot note the fox boat had a 2 blade 82 serius during the fau test/ when i had it it had 1 more blade and was quieter, i could plain out in deep water and have a normal conversation
What do you mean it wasn't pitched and tuned like he ran it? Thanks.
14x7.5 Al David hull with 14 inch transom
419 CI Horsepower Barn LS3 with 2.88 Ox Box swinging 4 blade 83.5" R
GTO Rigging and B&S Tilt Trailer

flying fish
Site Supporter - II
Site Supporter - II
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:09 pm
Location: Elkhart, Kansas

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by flying fish » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:52 pm

David Wine
I read your article on building an efficient boat. I was curious about one thing I noticed in the article.

The "Blue OX" boat made 1650# of thrust with a 2.3 gear and a 82" 3 blade Maximus prop.

Also, on "The Fox" boat, a ZZ383 was used and the torque was at 420# compared to the 560ish pounds torque the ZZ502 produces. Both motors utilized a 2.3 ratio reduction. How can one anticipate to make 1600#'s thrust with a ZZ383 and the ZZ502 made 1650# thrust. Seems the same prop is being used except these chosen props rotated different directions.

I realize the prop being used is all that. I run the same design. The thing that I can't figure is a 420ft lb motor making within 50#'s thrust of a 560 ft lb motor.

In your article, you also noted that the ZZ383 produced only 50#'s less thrust than the ZZ502 with the same propellor design and near the exact same reduction ratio. Can you please further explain this??
15' DB - 6.2 LSA - 4 blade 82" R - 2.52 CH-4

Gar Toof
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 9:16 pm
Location: texas

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by Gar Toof » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:31 pm

So by you formula my 220 should have a 62" propeller. I don't think that will work very well. Maybe I missed something.

User avatar
plumcrazy
Site Supporter - V
Site Supporter - V
Posts: 8697
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:10 am
Location: avon park

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by plumcrazy » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:46 pm

CarMotorBarge wrote:
plumcrazy wrote:wt won a club test, but he wasent a part of the test by fla atlantic university and the fwc it was a more stringent controled a documented test with calabrated sound equipment, i have a certified doucument on the fox boat of 82 at 50 ft with the boat set up as you would run it . the thunder sled was crazy quiet during the competition he won. but in my oppinion it wasent pitched and tuned like he ran it . and a foot note the fox boat had a 2 blade 82 serius during the fau test/ when i had it it had 1 more blade and was quieter, i could plain out in deep water and have a normal conversation
What do you mean it wasn't pitched and tuned like he ran it? Thanks.
pretty much like i said he had a lot of pitch and ran way less than peak hp and thrust, imo not real world for his boat and believe me that sled was a rank ride boat , but wt can clear this up. water thunder shines when he is challenged it only took him a few years to wax the ground rattler. when the guiet airboat thing was in full swing it didnt take him long to master that , not diggin on thunder but he needs tony 480s to make him shine boy love's a challenge 8) 8)

CarMotorBarge
Site Supporter - I
Site Supporter - I
Posts: 947
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:32 pm
Location: Lake Harney Woods

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by CarMotorBarge » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:01 pm

So WT needs tony480. Sounds like batman and the joker. Neither can live without the other. :lol:
14x7.5 Al David hull with 14 inch transom
419 CI Horsepower Barn LS3 with 2.88 Ox Box swinging 4 blade 83.5" R
GTO Rigging and B&S Tilt Trailer

WaterWalker
Site Supporter - V
Site Supporter - V
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:37 am

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by WaterWalker » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:13 pm

flying fish wrote:David Wine
I read your article on building an efficient boat. I was curious about one thing I noticed in the article.

The "Blue OX" boat made 1650# of thrust with a 2.3 gear and a 82" 3 blade Maximus prop.

Also, on "The Fox" boat, a ZZ383 was used and the torque was at 420# compared to the 560ish pounds torque the ZZ502 produces. Both motors utilized a 2.3 ratio reduction. How can one anticipate to make 1600#'s thrust with a ZZ383 and the ZZ502 made 1650# thrust. Seems the same prop is being used except these chosen props rotated different directions.

I realize the prop being used is all that. I run the same design. The thing that I can't figure is a 420ft lb motor making within 50#'s thrust of a 560 ft lb motor.

In your article, you also noted that the ZZ383 produced only 50#'s less thrust than the ZZ502 with the same propellor design and near the exact same reduction ratio. Can you please further explain this??
Gar Toof wrote:
So by your formula my 220 should have a 62" propeller. I don't think that will work very well. Maybe I missed something?

Gar:
I don't know what the HP at what RPM that your "220" is but the 10.61 HP per sq. ft. of disc area ratio is a design option for higher HP engines on trailer-able airboats. If we assume that the 220 is 220 HP and you have room in the cage for a larger prop, a lower ratio (say 6 to 8 HP per sq. ft. of disc area would be even better for developing pounds of thrust per HP. (The article stated that "in general, larger props are better" if there is room in the cage.)

Flyingfish:
Kindly go back to the article at the head of this thread and again read the paragraphs describing how the additional disc loading (HP per sq. ft. of disc area) of the Blue Ox setup (compared to the Fox setup) degraded the efficiency of the Ox's propeller's thrust results to find your answer.

Questions for plumcrazy, if you are listning:
Did you ever measure the thrust of the Fox after you bought it? At the time, we found it performed so well that we were not courious about its exact thrust number. Also our attention was more on the sound levels of this top performing airboat. Where is the Fox now? Does anybody know? Perhaps its current owner might want to test it?

Now speaking to the direction that this thread has taken: The caption of the article that it began with stated that the article was about a fuel efficient, quieter airboat. In the article I did not suggest that a builder of such an airboat go out and "find yourself a builder of top end, high RPM, high HP with attending initial cost, fuel burn and upkeep" engines with "big gear reduction units" for this plan. I suggested that one should seek an "off the shelf crate engine", use a 2.3/1 belt drive reduction unit and still expect top end performance.

Extra high HP engines are available from many engine builders and they are a part of "competitive" and "bragging rights" airboating. They are "lots of fun" if one wants and can afford them.

This article (and the resulting Fox airboat as a proof of the concept) describes a plan to produce a top performing four passenger "ride" airboat that will "be there before the crowd gets there", and get there quietly by focusing on "elegence of combined and complete design" rather than just horsepower.

I think that former President Harry Truman is quoted as saying something like "Its amazing how much you can get done if you don't care who gets the credit".

Some of the recent posts on this thread, while appreciated, are rather embarrassing, but thanks anyway.

David Wine
Working to make airboating better

User avatar
John C
Site Supporter - V
Site Supporter - V
Posts: 2884
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:43 pm
Location: Palm City

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by John C » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:56 pm

Thank you for your information David. It is well written and makes a lot of sense. I have seen and heard the Fox boat run on more than one occasion. You have proven your theory. That boat runs dry ground with ease and does so quietly and economically.

John C

User avatar
Waterthunder
Site Supporter - VIII
Site Supporter - VIII
Posts: 8166
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by Waterthunder » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:16 pm

Nothing say's hater more then someone saying you cheated at a sound competition that is hilarious. Who fricken cares about a sound competition. Even better all testing was done by certified equipment and I even got a certified document on the sound level. Well here is the truth the boat ran the same trim it always did with the S blade turning around 5,000RPM's. The funny part I must admit two nights before the competition I threw on a set of $75 summitt mufflers and the 90 degree elbows didn't take much work. I did have an FWC guy say he thought I over pitched it so I gave him a ride. Safe to say I scared the $#it6 out of him and he told me to slow down now.

Man typing is just way to easy actually doing it is harder! Anyone can say what ever they want but the facts are the Modern Times boat was 1/2 as loud as the 2nd place boat according to the people running the testing and equipment. But I'm sure Tony knows more about sound then the people with the equipment and the people from the university!
THE PROOF IS IN THE PROP!

"If you copy someone you will only achieve what has already been done."

http://waterthunder.com/
321-508-5316

flying fish
Site Supporter - II
Site Supporter - II
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:09 pm
Location: Elkhart, Kansas

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by flying fish » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:48 pm

WaterWalker wrote:
flying fish wrote:David Wine
I read your article on building an efficient boat. I was curious about one thing I noticed in the article.

The "Blue OX" boat made 1650# of thrust with a 2.3 gear and a 82" 3 blade Maximus prop.

Also, on "The Fox" boat, a ZZ383 was used and the torque was at 420# compared to the 560ish pounds torque the ZZ502 produces. Both motors utilized a 2.3 ratio reduction. How can one anticipate to make 1600#'s thrust with a ZZ383 and the ZZ502 made 1650# thrust. Seems the same prop is being used except these chosen props rotated different directions.

I realize the prop being used is all that. I run the same design. The thing that I can't figure is a 420ft lb motor making within 50#'s thrust of a 560 ft lb motor.

In your article, you also noted that the ZZ383 produced only 50#'s less thrust than the ZZ502 with the same propellor design and near the exact same reduction ratio. Can you please further explain this??
Flyingfish:
Kindly go back to the article at the head of this thread and again read the paragraphs describing how the additional disc loading (HP per sq. ft. of disc area) of the Blue Ox setup (compared to the Fox setup) degraded the efficiency of the Ox's propeller's thrust results to find your answer.


David Wine
Thanks David
I read what you said about degraded efficiency on the Blue Ox compared to the Fox Boat, and just did not let it soak in. At the time of reading about this thrust comparison, seemed like it must be more complicated than just degraded efficiency. Sure enjoyed the whole article.

Again, thanks-
15' DB - 6.2 LSA - 4 blade 82" R - 2.52 CH-4

chuckitt@earthlink.net
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:43 pm
Location: Lake Panasoffkee
Contact:

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by chuckitt@earthlink.net » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:49 pm

The Maximus ( right turn ) and the Serius ( left turn ) are not identical airfoils. The Serious has less cup in the blade.
Chuck

flying fish
Site Supporter - II
Site Supporter - II
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:09 pm
Location: Elkhart, Kansas

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by flying fish » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:00 pm

chuckitt@earthlink.net wrote:The Maximus ( right turn ) and the Serius ( left turn ) are not identical airfoils. The Serious has less cup in the blade.
Chuck
Until reading what you just posted, I would have argured that these blades were the same. Seems I was even told they were same except for direction of rotation. ??

I guess now I will just have to say the Sirius outpushes the Maximus due to the Sirius's airfoil having less cupping and this cupping causing less drag. The Sirius must be a more so efficient airfoil. :)

Just kidding, and thanks for the clarification
15' DB - 6.2 LSA - 4 blade 82" R - 2.52 CH-4

User avatar
twb119
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:32 am
Location: LaBelle

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by twb119 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:35 pm

The Fox Boat if its the one Red boat pictured early in the thread, has a Waterthunder 450hp with a carb engine on it now, the old one blew. I pulled it to the hill once, and pulled the second boat that blew trying to pull in the red boat.

User avatar
Whitebear
Site Supporter - VIII
Site Supporter - VIII
Posts: 16554
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:49 pm
Location: Palm Bay, Fl
Contact:

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by Whitebear » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:04 pm

Kinda seems like some are wanting to take a departure from the original post in the thread. I know its hard to stay on topic. I even go there sometimes myself.
"The Constitution is not so the government can restrain the people, it is so the people can restrain the government." Patrick Henry
The government cannot give anything --
that they have not first taken from someone else.

Ruagatr
Site Supporter - VIII
Site Supporter - VIII
Posts: 3689
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:29 pm

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by Ruagatr » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:27 pm

Not to oversimplify, but this is nothing new. Build the lightest boat you can, using a nice wide and long planing hull, with the most diameter propeller you can swing in the sweet zone and gear it down so torque is king. Takes an 8 ft boat width to make full use. My 7'6 is adequate but next hull before i die will be 8ft.

Maddog

Rich Andrews
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 6792
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:20 pm

Re: "Build a Fuel Efficient Four Passenger Quieter Airboat"

Post by Rich Andrews » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:13 pm

yall wonder why I miss my ole Thurman soo much which was 8ft wide.....and light
I'll have my Manatee burger medium please...just say NObama

14x8 deckover FELBER 397ci.. HP ???..just stay back!!

LOHA is AHOL backwards

Post Reply

Return to “Airboat Tech”