0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

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AlaskanOutdoorsman
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0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby AlaskanOutdoorsman » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:47 pm

I have an 0470-R Continental aircraft engine on a 15' open cab Silverdollar hull with a 72" poly bottom. The three blade 72" IVO is dated but can haul two grown men, camp and a moose. I'm told upgrading the prop will be beneficial with added push as prop technology has changed significantly.

What would prop recommendations be from those running an 0470 and similar boat? Is the Sensenich 72" two blade JM series the best way to go for hauling a load? Thanks in advance.
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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby flcracker9 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:11 am

I would think the 72" JN would be the way to go? The 0470-R is rated at 230hp, and I have a IO 0470-L that is rated at 260hp, and I turn my 72" NGQ 2800 on the trailer, pitched on the 2-3/4 mark on the prop. I would think if your engine is healthy, you could turn a 72" prop, which will give you better push. Just my thoughts.
12' Open Palm Beach, IO-0470-L 260hp, 72" NGQ

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby flcracker9 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:27 am

Just looked at the Sensenich site, the 72" JM may be a better option for you than the JN I mentioned above. I'm sure others will chime in.
12' Open Palm Beach, IO-0470-L 260hp, 72" NGQ

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby AlaskanOutdoorsman » Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:17 pm

The top end of my motor was rebuilt about 30 hours ago and the engine is in good shape.

Today a 2 blade whirlwind wispertip standard (72"/11") was suggested for about the same price. I'm sure both will a little better than the IVO that's on there now.

Is there a large difference in props or are we into a 'Chevy vs. Ford' type of thing?

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby AlaskanOutdoorsman » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:17 pm

Bought and installed the two blade 74" Whisper Tip Narrow on my boat and set it at 2650 RPM on the trailer. Ran it this weekend and can see the improvement from the old three blade IVO prop. Should I let things be or exchange out for the 1" wider blades with the 74" Whisper Tip? Most guys in my area run high power auto engines so I don't know if upgrading once again would provide better performance with the 0470 or not. I've looked for ratings for pounds of pull/thrust and haven't found anything for airboat props. The searches I've done haven't provided any comparisons between these two. Not sure if I should leave well enough alone or try to squeeze out a little a little bit more and risk some loss of fuel efficiency. Thanks in advance.
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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby Slidin Gator » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:11 pm

What pitch? Whisper tips work best pitched for higher RPM's and I am guessing you are pitched at or close to #3 mark at the moment. Note that the performance range for that prop is listed as 2,500 to 3,000 RPM. Try dropping the pitch some to get around 2,800 RPM and see how it runs to compare. If you can push that prop in the 2,800 RPM range and close to #2 pitch, you have the right prop.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby AlaskanOutdoorsman » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:34 pm

I started at B10 using Whirlwinds marks then used a craftsman gauge to set the pitch until I maxed out at 2650 RPM. I'll look at the mark's on the hub/prop tonight when I get home. I originally had it maxed out at 2900 RPM on the trailer but dialed it back since the max HP is 230 at 2600 RPM. I know you gain 200 RPM on the water so I was worried about passing 3000 RPM.(if you cant tell this is new for me)

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby Slidin Gator » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:11 pm

AlaskanOutdoorsman wrote:I originally had it maxed out at 2900 RPM on the trailer but dialed it back since the max HP is 230 at 2600 RPM. I know you gain 200 RPM on the water so I was worried about passing 3000 RPM.(if you cant tell this is new for me)


2,800 on the trailer is guaranteed to keep you under 3,000 on the water, unless your boat really flys. I can't speak to RPM for max hp on the 470, 2,600 is a possibility, you'd have to tell me. My experience with Whispertips is limited to some of my buddies running the Whispertip 11" with a 74" hub on 300 Hp IO-540's. They told me that when they first put them on they did not push like the 10-1/2" Q blades did. "2,500 go anywhere with the Q." But after taking pitch out and spinning 2,800, they love the Whispertip.

I think this recent thread is a good reference, as is the instructions Kwan put up:
https://southernairboat.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=71241&p=688871#p688871
kwanjangnihm wrote:Image


I have to admit that this information baffles the crap out of me, not having actually dealt with re-pitching these blades. WW info states 3 marks, A, B & C and it also discusses pitch from 10-30 degrees. My brain puts 2+2 together and I get A=10 degrees, B=20 degrees and C=30 degrees. So what does B10 mean in terms of actual pitch? Are there 2 adjustments? B10 makes me think the prop is at 10 degrees, but being an initial setting I assume it is mid range, about 20 degrees :dontknow: :violent1: Some pictures would be useful for me.


If we can determine that you are around 20 degrees pitch (middle of the range) at 2,650 RPM, then you likely have the right Whirlwind prop vs. the 11" and all that is left is to find the optimum pitch for you. Keep in mind that more pitch and/or more prop (like the 11" Whispertip) will all lead to lower cruise RPM and lower fuel consumption, but might not give the performance you need. You are trading off more capability vs. better fuel consumption, that's the issue with a single gear :!:
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby AlaskanOutdoorsman » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:33 pm

I set each tip at 91 degrees on my gauge but hear that Alaskans are different when setting props. In any event, looking at the set mark's on the hub and blades I'm at B17 so I'm in whirlwinds 'yellow' zone. As is, I ran 45 miles the other night averaging 2200-2400 RPM (with a few spots running 2900 RPM) and burned 23 gallons of fuel.

Researching online this engine produces 230 HP at 2600 RPM. That much I know for certain. If pitching for 2800 RPM will give me better performance and keep me under 3000 on the water I'll adjust accordingly and try again.

Ultimately I want the most hauling ability possible with the best fuel consumption. Moose and caribou season is right around the corner and I'm not overly worried about speed as long as I'm not crawling. The old IVO blades hauled two grown men, camp and a moose or three caribou. I was told new blades would show an improvement in performance and fuel consumption so I let go of the money for the upgrade.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out now.
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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby Slidin Gator » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:47 pm

AlaskanOutdoorsman wrote:I set each tip at 91 degrees on my gauge but hear that Alaskans are different when setting props. In any event, looking at the set mark's on the hub and blades I'm at B17 so I'm in whirlwinds 'yellow' zone. As is, I ran 45 miles the other night averaging 2200-2400 RPM (with a few spots running 2900 RPM) and burned 23 gallons of fuel.

Researching online this engine produces 230 HP at 2600 RPM. That much I know for certain. If pitching for 2800 RPM will give me better performance and keep me under 3000 on the water I'll adjust accordingly and try again.

Thanks for the picture, after some head scratching I guess I understand it. As I read the info, use the B mark for direct drive and align with the hub pitch marks, forget about the A & C markings. I assume the 91 degrees at the tips is based on an electronic level, relative to the crank axis?

The WW info states the following:
The propeller has been designed to operate from 10 degrees to 30 degrees for optimum performance.


It is best to have a prop running in the middle of the pitch range, this is where they are most optimum and it leaves some adjust-ability. Assuming 2600 is max engine Hp, I would say the prop is a good match to the motor based on the B-17.5 setting. A wider blade prop will require a pretty low pitch setting to run at the same RPM.

Given you said you hit 2,900 RPM at times, I would limit the trailer setting to 2,750 and try that. If performance improves further, then the 2,600 RPM estimate is low for max engine power. But, if performance decreases at the higher RPM setting, I would also test with more pitch and a lower trailer WOT rpm (2550 etc) just to confirm you found the sweet spot.

As for fuel consumption, 2 MPG seems pretty good to me, is that an improvement? I assume your cruise RPM is down vs. the IVO?

One thing to consider, if you have the room you could try a 74" hub with the same blades, particularly if you find max power in the lower RPM ranges with what you have.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby Slidin Gator » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:36 pm

After thinking about this some more and doing a little research, I am wondering if there is a motor issue. Just to confirm, you are running the 10" wide, narrow Whisper tip at 72":
https://whirlwindpropellers.com/airboats/shop/whisper-tip-narrow/

Per that link the prop is rated for 160-220 Hp, with 200 Hp being the max for the 2 blade, while the 3 blade is listed for O-470 applications. The 11" wide blade is rated 220-300 in the 2 blade configuration.

Based on the WW website, the options for a 230 Hp motor are:
- 2 blade configurations:
wide blade set at B10ish for push or
narrow blade set at B30(+) for high speed.
- 3 blade narrow set in the middle

Any indications of a motor issue? You might want to check that both mags are working properly, check plugs and possibly do a compression check for starters.

This video is where I found the instructions to stick to the B mark for DD applications.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby AlaskanOutdoorsman » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:44 am

That is correct and I agree on the blades suggested HP/engine use on WW's site. That said, these are what WW suggested after a lengthy discussion. Frankly I don't see the 0470 turning three wide blades but I may be wrong. In my searches its either been three narrow blades like a warp drive or IVO prop or a wide two blade.

As far as history goes, I just bought the boat 10 hours ago. The previous owner owned multiple 0470 airboats and a 180 aircraft; he is a mechanic/pilot and kept everything in good shape. He took all parts that became out of 'airtime' from his aircraft and if they were good put them on the airboat (or included them with the sale). A full top end was done on the engine about 40 hours ago. Runs strong, no excessive oil use, doesn't over heat, leak or have any other apparent issues (had an aircraft mechanic go over it before buying). Mags work good and I just installed new auto plugs about 5 hours ago (Champions). I run premium fuel but may switch to avgas for the extra benefits.

Im going to find some time to repitch to 2750 static this week after work and see how the performance is.

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby Gary S » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:26 am

My 470 is turning a 5 blade whirlwind excaliber set at 8 1/2 degrees 2800.

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby AlaskanOutdoorsman » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:03 pm

Excalibur's are 5" wide vs the 10" on my boat. What length are your blades?

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby Slidin Gator » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:56 pm

AlaskanOutdoorsman wrote:Excalibur's are 5" wide vs the 10" on my boat. What length are your blades?

You are right, not much value in comparing the two. I am hopeful someone running (or used to run) the same motor/prop combo will chime in to compare. Your plan to re-pitch and test again is solid. Once done, I would suggest a call to WW to compare your results with their expectations for the set up.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby AlaskanOutdoorsman » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:08 am

Slidin Gator wrote: Given you said you hit 2,900 RPM at times, I would limit the trailer setting to 2,750 and try that. If performance improves further, then the 2,600 RPM estimate is low for max engine power. But, if performance decreases at the higher RPM setting, I would also test with more pitch and a lower trailer WOT rpm (2550 etc) just to confirm you found the sweet spot.

As for fuel consumption, 2 MPG seems pretty good to me, is that an improvement? I assume your cruise RPM is down vs. the IVO?

One thing to consider, if you have the room you could try a 74" hub with the same blades, particularly if you find max power in the lower RPM ranges with what you have.


Thanks for the tips. The fuel consumption is better as is the performance. Just got home - I ran the lake tonight and the boat started porpoising. We made some adjustments and gained some RPM but I need to add some screws to the poly then try another run to see if I made enough adjustment. That said, at 2500 RPM in deep water the tank was running 30 mph with myself and 42 gallons of fuel on board before she started porpoising. Im green but I don't think that's all that bad since the boat is well built (the hull has 32" sides), was in deep water and the engine is only 230hp. I'm looking forward to getting the rest of the bugs worked out hopefully later this weekend.

I'm already addicted to my airboat and starting to prefer it over my Sportjon. :thumbleft: Thanks again for the tips and recommendations.

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby Slidin Gator » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:13 pm

Glad it's working out for you. Aviation motor ratings are not necessarily maximum Hp on a given engine, they tend to be conservative. It sounds like you are tapping into a few extra ponies. You certainly want to get that poly down solid, but you may want to live with the porpoising when light. Given your stated need for load hauling, you want a bit of nose lift from the prop to keep the boat from plowing when full of moose and gear. I suggest testing with the weight you plan to haul.

For good measure I ran this weekend with another boat running the standard blade Whisper tip (1 inch wider than the narrow discussed here). That prop is on a 74" hub and turned by a fine running, 300 Hp, fuel injected IO-540. His prop is pitched just a hair under the B-17.5 mark that you showed earlier and turns 2,800 RPM on the trailer. Ignore my musings on motor power, it sounds like all is as it should be on your 470.

I am also aware of someone finishing up an O-180 build and the initial plan is to try the same (wider) blades on a 72" hub. So there may be some value in switching to the wider blades. It is hard to say without testing the 2 options on your boat and it will be a few months before that boat gets run.

Have fun, they are a blast. But you would not find me running winter in Alaska without a nice heated cabin. Those mornings around here in the low 30's are about all a man can stand with a fan blowing cold air...
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby AlaskanOutdoorsman » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:54 pm

I'd love to try out another set of blades but that's one airboat drawback to living in Alaska.. we have some great dealers here but they don't have the prop inventory I'm sure they have down south where customers can go in, exchange, run then decide. Up here we order a set of blades, try them, then send them back and exchange them to start the process over again if need be. It's not the best process but it is what it is. I don't see to many aircraft engines on the water either, most guys run different setups.

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Re: 0470-R Prop options 15' Silverdollar

Postby Slidin Gator » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:37 pm

I think you probably have the best prop for your application. 2 MPG means you run mostly shallow water, an airboater's dream. Any changes from what you have will improve dry (Florida Dry) ground running and planning with a load, but decrease top end and probably fuel mileage. As long as what you have planes out well, you have the answer.

Run that manly AV motor and laugh at the Car Motor, Heated cabin wimps (I can take it, that where I will ride in your neck of the woods!). :stirpot:
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.


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