O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Aircraft powered airboat discussion.
User avatar
Slidin Gator
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:33 pm
Location: Jupiter Farms, Florida

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby Slidin Gator » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:10 pm

krazymatt wrote:will also probably put 2-3 washers in the aux. relief spring to try to keep it from just dumping back to sump.


I think this is a great idea, now that you mention it it's kinda a Duh on my part, should of been one of the first things to suggest after understanding the system :banghead:

Now that you mention this as an obvious potential area of leakage, do this first before adding the Lucas, inspect it well for contamination and seat scoring etc. and go back with added washers noted. With original cooler spring installed, any change is likely to be a combination of higher oil pressure and some cooler flow. Keep adding washers until you don't get any improvement in pressure/cooling flow, this valve is just a safety relief, and should normally not be flowing at all.

Then switch to Lucas mix if needed.

As long as the oil pressure is in range, no need to worry about testing the lower cooler spring.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

Kmr320
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:46 pm

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby Kmr320 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:15 am

Sorry I posted on your timing post. Anyway, the oiling system on all the lycomings are simple. Straight forward. That being said. It will get hot if you take the spring out of the plunger or if the plunger is hanging open. Your oil cooler inlet line (pressure side ) should be coming off of your acc housing and dumping back to the oil pan. Some pics of how it’s plumbed would help. I would NEVER put Lucas or any other snake oil in my engine.

User avatar
Slidin Gator
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:33 pm
Location: Jupiter Farms, Florida

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby Slidin Gator » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:04 pm

Kmr,

The oil system on the 435 is different than the 320 bypass circuit I believe you are thinking of.

Matt posted this diagram of the circuit previously. Cooler flow comes from the main relief. There is also an auxiliary relief that should be set to a higher pressure and is intended to prevent over pressure during cold oil start up or in case the cooler is plugged. In original applications, there was a cooler bypass external to the engine (part of the cooler assembly). I do not believe Matt has an external bypass.

Image
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

Kmr320
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:46 pm

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby Kmr320 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:21 pm

Crazy Matt,I posted earlier but idk what happened to it. Is the front case on that engine from a GPU? Also where is the pressure side of the cooler coming from? I’ve dealt with this a few times on the 0290 gpu. Hot engine. No flow on cooler. Pm me if you’d like.

Kmr320
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:46 pm

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby Kmr320 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:31 pm

Slidin Gator, ik what your talking about. I have seen the external deals. But. Some of the gpu cases are not plumbed for an external oil cooler. All I can see in his pics are the one hose to the pan which should be the return. There are no passages In that oil pan that have oil flow. I’ve run many supply to the cooler lines off of the end of the oil strainer housing. The gpu front case isn’t tapped on top of the strainer where the oil supply would be on most a/c motors. That said there r a ton of front acc covers that would fit that engine.

User avatar
Slidin Gator
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:33 pm
Location: Jupiter Farms, Florida

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby Slidin Gator » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:10 pm

Kmr320, I am not familiar with the 290 gpu or O-435 beyond what's in the manual, but it sounds like there are some differences between the two. The plumbing I see in the pic does match up with the details in the 435 manual. Port side connection "C" on the sump is the cooler supply from the relief valve.

Image

I assume the cooler return plumbs to port "B" on the stbd side.

Image

That said, I think it's a goofy system and I agree it could use improvement.

Kmr320 wrote:Your oil cooler inlet line (pressure side ) should be coming off of your acc housing and dumping back to the oil pan

Doesn't this just do the same thing as the present circuit, steal some of the motor pressure oil for cooling?

Kmr320 wrote: I’ve run many supply to the cooler lines off of the end of the oil strainer housing. The gpu front case isn’t tapped on top of the strainer where the oil supply would be on most a/c motors. That said there r a ton of front acc covers that would fit that engine.

I understand tapping off the oil screen housing for cooler supply but it seems to me that the oil needs to return back into the circuit to feed the motor? I've been wondering if a cooler bypass plate off an H2AD will fit the pressure screen mount to add a cooler bypass circuit like normal AC setups.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

Kmr320
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:46 pm

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby Kmr320 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:47 pm

I just looked at 435 sump. And sure enough has oil passeges in it. And yes. Any oil going to the cooler does take away from the other. But I was just thinking maybe he could plumb it a different way to troubleshoot. Not sure what the numbers r but a lyc gear driven pump will pump its tail off. If it was dropping to 10psi at idle hot I’d be worried about bearings. Something is plugged,in the wrong spot,acc housing gasket covering an oil port etc. I wouldn’t split the case just yet if it were mine. I’d make that cooler flow and see if my temps dropped.

User avatar
Slidin Gator
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:33 pm
Location: Jupiter Farms, Florida

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby Slidin Gator » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:07 pm

Kmr320 wrote:Something is plugged,in the wrong spot,acc housing gasket covering an oil port etc.

Ever since Krazy mentioned the Aux relief I have become more suspicious of that. I have also been wondering if there could be leakage in the blanked off Fuel and vacuum pump drive circuit?

Kmr320 wrote:I just looked at 435 sump. And sure enough has oil passeges in it.

Any chance you are looking at a sump separated from the motor? Any likely places for leakage in the pressure circuit? Probably possible paths between the sump and case interface? All hard to troubleshoot??
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

Kmr320
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:46 pm

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby Kmr320 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:55 pm

Yes. there’s an oil port that runs from acc housing to the sump. I’ll look at a 360 I’ve got apart to see if that exists on a 4cyl. The wrong acc housing or wrong gasket could cover that hole. Crazymatt, can you get us more pics of your front case? And where your cooler lines are connected. That acc housing can be removed with out removing the sump on sum engines. That’s ifthe gasket survives. I had this exact same trouble on a n/d 320 150hp once. Guy bought a acc case for his engine and the plunger was missing. Spring was there but no plunger. Lol. Put in a plunger and no more hot oil.

krazymatt
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:08 pm
Location: Cocoa

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby krazymatt » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:17 pm

Kmr320 wrote:Yes. there’s an oil port that runs from acc housing to the sump. I’ll look at a 360 I’ve got apart to see if that exists on a 4cyl. The wrong acc housing or wrong gasket could cover that hole. Crazymatt, can you get us more pics of your front case? And where your cooler lines are connected. That acc housing can be removed with out removing the sump on sum engines. That’s ifthe gasket survives. I had this exact same trouble on a n/d 320 150hp once. Guy bought a acc case for his engine and the plunger was missing. Spring was there but no plunger. Lol. Put in a plunger and no more hot oil.


There are 2 passages from sump to the acc. Case. 1 is suction passage from port through the suction screen/filter in the sump up to feed the oil pump in the accessory case. The other is the pressure out from the pump which is then pumped back down to sump through the pressure screen then out to the motor and relief valves. Both relief valves are intact with spring and plungers. When you look at the 360 depending the model some have a pickup that come off the acc housing and into the sump with a screen filter and some have an internal passage way through the sump. If you look at the accessory housing it will either have the spot for the pickup to bolt 2 with 2 1/4-20 bolts and a plug on the bottom or there will be smooth spot and the port will be open at the bottom of the accessory case where it mates to the pump.. the oil then exits from the accsory housing. Mine returns to the sump where it is sent through the motor and to the cooler.

I will try to get pic of the accsory housing on mine this week. It can be removed with the sump on. The only things on it are the 2 mags, case vent and the oil pump. Alt & starter r on prop end.

There are 3- 1/2" cooler connections on my sump. 2 are wide open to the pump no pressure "return ports" and one pressure port to the cooler which is controlled by the main relief valve.

User avatar
Slidin Gator
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:33 pm
Location: Jupiter Farms, Florida

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby Slidin Gator » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:10 pm

krazymatt wrote:There are 3- 1/2" cooler connections on my sump. 2 are wide open to the pump no pressure "return ports" and one pressure port to the cooler which is controlled by the main relief valve.

So where does the cooler return too? That does not match the manual I have been referring to, so more guessing.

Still not discounting something leaking a bunch of flow direct to the sump, but do you know how the porting is plumbed through the sump? If it were possible to block off flow between the two full pressure ports you could route full oil out one port, through a cooler system and then back into the next full pressure port. But you still want to get to the root of the issue for sure.

There has to be another connection downstream of the sump relief to route pressure back to the case to feed to engine. Are the passages sealed with a gasket or tubes with O-ring? With all those passages it seems like a lot of opportunities for leakage from pressure direct to sump. I can't think of a way to troubleshoot this without pulling the sump and eye balling it all real good, maybe pressure testing the sump itself.

Given that you have cooler flow when cold, I can't imagine that you have a blocked port.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.

krazymatt
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:08 pm
Location: Cocoa

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby krazymatt » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:00 am

I meant to write 3- 1/2" ports. 2 returns to the sump and one pressure port from the pump. The2 that return to the sump are just threaded ports that dump directly back into the the sump.

krazymatt
Southern Airboat Member
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:08 pm
Location: Cocoa

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby krazymatt » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:02 am

Depending on which manual u are looking at there are some descrepcancies...

User avatar
Slidin Gator
Site Supporter - IV
Site Supporter - IV
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:33 pm
Location: Jupiter Farms, Florida

Re: O435 oil temperature / relief valve

Postby Slidin Gator » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:23 am

krazymatt wrote:I meant to write 3- 1/2" ports. 2 returns to the sump and one pressure port from the pump. The2 that return to the sump are just threaded ports that dump directly back into the the sump.

Ok, that matches, no surprise there are discrepancies... Pressure still passes from case to sump and back to case, so those connections are good suspects.
I grew up thinking I-10 was the Mason Dixon line.
1986 Airboat Engineering Inc., 14' Marsh Master. Refreshed narrow deck, SV O-540, 72” NGQ. A Bob Stossel original.


Return to “Aircraft Power Only”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests