With a dual plane intake air velocity is created for down low power. The throttle body is still introducing fuel in the same place as a carb. Port injection I agree should make no difference since the fuel is sprayed directly in to the port. But on a throttle body I believe it makes all the difference. Same as you can get away with a small carb on a single plane intake than a dual plane. I may have to test this theory once the dyno is up and running. Now I agree with maybe a Torker style (2500-6500) for a gearbox boat to wake it up in the midrange.
-
If you log in, the ads disappear in the forum and gallery. If you need help logging in or getting registered, send request to: webmaster@southernairboat.com
Air fuel ratio for direct drive
- Thread starter keys2pines
- Start date
SWAMPHUNTER45
Well-known member
A lot of user data in sites like this one. Guys who experienced lean conditions on certain cylinders using a dual plane, map issues and fuel degradation to seals etc. Something to think about maybe.
http://cpgnation.com/forum/threads/ez-efi-2-0-injection-with-dual-plane-intake-vs-single-plane.25871/
http://cpgnation.com/forum/threads/ez-efi-2-0-injection-with-dual-plane-intake-vs-single-plane.25871/
keys2pines
Well-known member
That's a different system, and a totally subjective post, but there are a lot of threads on the subject that go both ways. I was reading one where he "cured" all his dual-plane symptoms, until 3 pages later and the single plane was worse than the dual plane. Here's a scientific approach to the subject, notice on the carb motor up to 23% different EGT readings on certain cylinders. Based on this you can say using a carb on a dual-plane is a bad idea https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/carb-to-efi/SWAMPHUNTER45 said:
SWAMPHUNTER45
Well-known member
You will see when you run the dual plane KeyPine your gonna puddle fuel. Not a issue with the carburetor nothing to effect it, those fuel droplets just burn undetected but the EFI it's O2sensors and tune map will be effected. Maybe some of the systems have more forgiving software that is slower to adjust. Let us know how your system handles it and if you need to replace any components.
Here is another great source for you to learn from and it offers the 10 most common problems encountered with a EFI in a build.
The cam selection is a key component and will really dictate success of the intake selected. It appears with EFI because of the sensors and software picking a cam on the smaller side and being conservative offers advantages. HotRod warns of EFI manifold reversion and how cam LSA effects a longer runner. They discuss the air fuel charge being "pooled up" by reversion when intakes have a longer runner and advise with the typical aftermarket performance cam of higher duration or a low LSA the single plane intake offers tuning compatibilities.
Also important for you EFI guys to read about fuel selection. It is noted that you should not use a leaded fuel so aviation fuels or some of the race gasolines will lead to sensor malfunctions.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-9812-10-common-efi-mistakes/
Here is another great source for you to learn from and it offers the 10 most common problems encountered with a EFI in a build.
The cam selection is a key component and will really dictate success of the intake selected. It appears with EFI because of the sensors and software picking a cam on the smaller side and being conservative offers advantages. HotRod warns of EFI manifold reversion and how cam LSA effects a longer runner. They discuss the air fuel charge being "pooled up" by reversion when intakes have a longer runner and advise with the typical aftermarket performance cam of higher duration or a low LSA the single plane intake offers tuning compatibilities.
Also important for you EFI guys to read about fuel selection. It is noted that you should not use a leaded fuel so aviation fuels or some of the race gasolines will lead to sensor malfunctions.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-9812-10-common-efi-mistakes/
keys2pines
Well-known member
I'm on the Fitech user groups on facebook. There are literally hundreds using dual-plane with no issues whatsoever. Some with spacers, some without, some with the center divider milled some, some stock. Read this article where they used dual plane, see section number 6 where they show the picture of the fuel being injecting above the butterflies. The fuel should be atomized MORE than a carb. I've looked down the throat of my carb at WOT on the trailer, fuel is just pouring in like a hose. If anything that would cause puddling. I appreciate your comments, but the situation doesn't occur with THIS system. Holley doesn't recommend using dual-plane on their system because it causes issues, their map sensor only reads from one side. This system map sensor has a channel so it reads from both sides. As far as cam, I see 19" of vacuum at idle, super mild and I'm DD, no leaded gas for me. Join the Fitech user group on facebook, there are guys running big hp cars with no issues. http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1703-efi-versus-carb-dyno-testSWAMPHUNTER45 said:
Edit- just in case there's confusion, I'm talking about TBI (throttle body injection), fuel being delivered at the same point as a carb. Port injection system use dry runners, and the fuel injectors are close to the intake valve. In a port injection system, they are ALL single plane because you want equal air flowing to the cylinders. The port injection system also doesn't suffer from the low end fuel distribution problems a carb might see.
SWAMPHUNTER45
Well-known member
I would think any system that can get enhanced data would tend to be more likely to forecast and respond more accurately to changing conditions. Hence the factory systems having upstream and downstream sensors.
Do the FI Tech sensors have a self heat cycle at start up ?
That seems to be a fail point in the OEM systems.
Do the FI Tech sensors have a self heat cycle at start up ?
That seems to be a fail point in the OEM systems.
ryansmoneypit
Member
efi systems do not forecast. they work using real time info, close to it anyway. Most decent systems also use a smoothing factor to eliminate a noisy signal from the WB, smoothing out the signal and number that we see...
automotive 2 sensor systems are a little different. they use a narrow band sensor for tuning and a second for relaying info about gasses, but just to signal a check engine light.
All (afik) wide band o2 sensors are self heated and should last years under good conditions.
automotive 2 sensor systems are a little different. they use a narrow band sensor for tuning and a second for relaying info about gasses, but just to signal a check engine light.
All (afik) wide band o2 sensors are self heated and should last years under good conditions.
keys2pines
Well-known member
I'm not sure about the self heat cycle, the wideband sensors have a heating element though. It's a basic efi system, the sensors it uses are MAP, coolant, TPS, and the wideband.SWAMPHUNTER45 said:
SWAMPHUNTER45
Well-known member
Pardon me I don't speak EFI well...lol
I consider a MAP program a forecast as it is predetermined output parameters. If a self learn stores data then the stored data is used to forecast the need of future demand.
Does your system just react in real time off the sensor data or does it sort of average things. I wonder if where you refer to that smooth out feature is actually a MAP.
Do you know if the sensors are powered to heat themselves at startup ?
I consider a MAP program a forecast as it is predetermined output parameters. If a self learn stores data then the stored data is used to forecast the need of future demand.
Does your system just react in real time off the sensor data or does it sort of average things. I wonder if where you refer to that smooth out feature is actually a MAP.
Do you know if the sensors are powered to heat themselves at startup ?
kwanjangnihm
Moderator
glad I dont worry about these items when I'm running the marsh :cheers:CarMotorBarge said:
self heat cycle
wideband sensors
fuel puddle
heating element
MAP
coolant
TPS
wideband
O2 sensor
ECU
ECM
Go EFI Kit
Ultimate Kit
future forecast - yea I admit to checking the weather before I leave the house! :stirpot: :toothy7:
SWAMPHUNTER45
Well-known member
Oh Jeffery you long to be a CarMotor guy down deep don't you?
Being able to pull up anywhere you want loaded up. Buying pump gas at the corner store. Going to the NAPA for your parts.
Well maybe not, after all you have perfected the soon to be patented and now famous "Rudder Shake & Butt Scooch"
Oh the sight of that action !!!!!!!
Being able to pull up anywhere you want loaded up. Buying pump gas at the corner store. Going to the NAPA for your parts.
Well maybe not, after all you have perfected the soon to be patented and now famous "Rudder Shake & Butt Scooch"
Oh the sight of that action !!!!!!!
keys2pines
Well-known member
keys2pines
Well-known member
[youtube-video]https://youtu.be/bxGFZNy9kik[/youtube-video]
What temp is it getting to. Took a little bit to get the air out of my system. Let it sit for a few with the burp tank cap off. It would burp and need some more fluid. Ran it on the trailer for a bit and topped it off. Topped it off a week later before ride and it was good to go
keys2pines
Well-known member
It crept up to 206, then I shut it down. I let it cool for a while then did it again, same result. I changed to a 180* thermostat because the EFI learns above 170* I was told. I was searching around the forum and saw people drilling a hole in the thermostat to help air escape, I didn't do that, didn't know it was necessary. I'm going to let it cool, check the coolant and try again tomorrow. I might pull the thermostat and drill it.Keeth1123 said:
Hmmmm. I can’t speak for the EFI deal. I want the setup you have but don’t feel like messing with it. My carb setup runs a 165* thermostat with no holes or anything drilled. I added a bottle of a Lucas coolant product with my dex cool coolant. It runs at 170 to 180. Will rise to 200 if you shit down after running dry.
I can’t rmemebee what my DD 350 used to run but I know it was cool. I wanna say like 165. Had a big block size radiator on it though
I can’t rmemebee what my DD 350 used to run but I know it was cool. I wanna say like 165. Had a big block size radiator on it though
Hmmmm. I can’t speak for the EFI deal. I want the setup you have but don’t feel like messing with it. My carb setup runs a 165* thermostat with no holes or anything drilled. I added a bottle of a Lucas coolant product with my dex cool coolant. It runs at 170 to 180. Will rise to 200 if you shit down after running dry.
I can’t rmemebee what my DD 350 used to run but I know it was cool. I wanna say like 165. Had a big block size radiator on it though
I can’t rmemebee what my DD 350 used to run but I know it was cool. I wanna say like 165. Had a big block size radiator on it though
keys2pines
Well-known member
99% sure it's air, I'm trying to figure out the best way to purge the air, on my car I had bleed screws.Keeth1123 said: